Have pretty much decided I'm going to make this one of the first mods on my new MINI, but having a hard time deciding whether to go with the NM torque arm inserts or spend the extra $50 to get the BSH replacement mount. I don't see that either list actual durometer readings for the poly they use (would be looking for the street setup). BSH states that the stock arm has been known to break, but even if it's the case on higher-power engines (haven't noticed any large number of posts complaining of broken mounts) it seems unlikely to happen on a "justa".

I don't mind paying the extra for the BSH as long as I'm getting something out of it, but that $50 could go towards other mods if I'm just throwing it away by not going with the NM inserts.

Any opinions / experience with the two that might sway me either direction?

 

That mount is reasonably heavy duty.

I have the NM mount and it seems to work to give you a better shifting feel. My Mini chief mechanic at the dealership said he could feel the clutch engagement better.

 

Not having done either my post is only hearsay, and you may want to run a search to locate someone's opinion whose strivings are similar to yours. There are those who don't want to sacrifice cabin comfort for extra drivetrain feel, and in that case it appears that the lower engine mount does communicate more harshness than stiffening the torque arm, making the insert the choice for those who want better power transmission to the wheels without losing the quiet ride.

Having driven an early Mini across the country back in the days, I remember its impression on my own seat and spine, which despite my young age and healthy physique lasted for close to a week's time. That is one thing which BMW spared us in their revamping of the car! That first Mini would really transmit a whole lot of vibration despite its diminutive engine which, 'classics' please don't shoot me down, make's a Justa feel like a luxury super-car (an Austin 1.3 was my daily driver for 4 years).

If you want to mod your car into a road racer as its primary character or duty, then consider the no compromise approach to stiffening the ride and conveying as much drivetrain and road information as possible to the driver. It would then be a dedicated sports car, and it would be as tiring as a physical sport to drive/race your Mini. Even today's sports seats are like lounge chairs compared to the thin slabs that served as diminutive seating in those early cars that kept costs and weight down quite effectively, driving on cobblestones made it feel like you were in an apple cart...

From there you'll have to dial in other features or comfort for creatures you wish to retain or improve in your car, such as how isolated from the actual driving experience you'd like to remain, and BMW has done a good job of that by sound dampening and steering feel isolation, and how cushy a ride you prefer which is mostly a matter of suspension, wheels and tires.

I see virtue in the engine bracing mostly in terms of efficiency, ensuring that more power goes to the wheels and isn't lost during a brief delay when transmitted to the mounts or the frame. If this can be significantly reduced without much intervention, say with the torque arm insert, why not? After all, BMW may have already engineered these cars quite well with little room for improvement in at least certain areas. And maybe adding stiffer engine mounts as a matter of routine is less of an issue with ladder frame muscle cars than with a Mini, due to its unibody being prone to resonance which amplifies vibrations?

By the way, hats off to your choice of Mini color combos each one being a winner in its own category! Dark silver is hot eye candy and even works with the JCW trim you are considering, while White silver is especially gorgeous on a Clubman, uniquely suiting its character and lending it a special elegance.

 

It is BS that the mounts break. I've never seen or even heard of a broken torque arm on an R56.

I sell both of them and for a daily driver you'll be alot happier with the NM torque arm bushing. The BSH mount works, but will transfer alot more NVH to the interior.

 

I actually ended up picking up the NM inserts from you... Kudos for the great service and fast shipping - you run a good shop.

Have had them on for about 9000 miles now and am very happy with the difference they make in the feel of the clutch and engine, and find the difference in NVH minimal. I'll be swapping the inserts over to my new car when it arrives, but still can't help but wonder about the BSH part (I'm fairly tolerant of NVH). Maybe if I hit the lotto I'll pick one up to try out, but I'm happy for now.

Thanks. I love my DS coupe, but decided to go ahead and step up to the Clubman before our daugher is born - found out wife was pregnant exactly one week before putting down the deposit to order the coupe. Got a good enough deal on the coupe I've already got decent equity in it after 6 months and with the lower financing now it works out to not be much more money. Out of the available color choices I probably would have gone with White Silver on the Clubman anyway, but it was the available two-tone rear trim that sealed the deal - the rear trim has always been the thing I really didn't like on a Clubman.

I've never driven a classic Mini (though it's on my list of cars I'd like to own some day), but can only imagine that driving one across country would be a bit of an endurance trial. Definitely not looking to swing the pendulum that far in the "no compromises for comfort" direction, but I definitely feel like, while they did a fine job with the core engineering of the car, they probably erred a bit on the side of comfort when deciding on things like bushing materials, spring rates, etc to provide more mass appeal. I need the car to be comfortable enough for commuting, but don't mind a little NVH in exchange for a bit better performance... It's a MINI, after all - if I'd wanted a completely comfortable drive I'd have bought a Town Car.

Just a matter of doing the research ahead of time and trying to make sensible choices to nudge the pendulum a bit at a time towards the "sporty" side until it feels like the car I want it to be.

 

Grueinthebox,


From what the supplier says as well as comments from a number of others here I am not sure what can be expected going with the stiffer lower engine mount especially if most of the lag is fixed. My daughter and dog were both sleeping on a day trip in the back of the Cooper today and that is a feature that a soon to be father should sort of think about a tad, especially if the gains aren't earth shattering but only car jittering?


The reason I'm saying this isn't because I am on the cushy ride side when these are meant to be fun to drive, but because further stiffening the engine's bracing may only be needed if pushed to much higher power levels. Maybe with nitrous? Can't hurt it more than a turbo.



One thing I'm thinking of is that you may prefer to go to smaller wheels ie. 15 inch 'alloys' on the Clubman if you're getting the same engine as your hatch. This is because it is heavier enough to make a noticeable difference in acceleration which might just be compensated by smaller and lighter wheels and tires. Keeping them low profile would skew your speedometer but would also reduce total diameter, lowering the car's center of gravity for handling while reducing the demultiplication so that power gets to the road sooner. I assume that when you mention the rear trim of the Clubman you are speaking of the plastic looking vertical bars near the tailgate? That's the main design flaw I find other than awkward proportions which happen to be perfectly compensated and balanced by White Silver paint.



Having driven a Classic Mini maybe that's why I got a Town Car stateside? It's more tiring to step out of that car than to drive all day long. But they aren't for the same types of roads, or cities. Cabs move out of the way for a Town Car careening through New York City streets. But in Alpine hairpins or twisty Mediterranean roads a Mini RULES. And somehow, there is a city pecking order in a European Metropolis and bigger cars defer to the most urban car which is at the top of the City Gene Pool.

 

Definitely something I"m considering at this point (albeit maybe not in the long term, and sans the dog)... The change in NVH with the NM inserts is really VERY minimal - really just "V" without any N or H, only really noticeable at idle if your hands are on the wheel. Haven't heard any complaints or snarky comments from the wife, so don't think the change is even noticeable for passengers.

Could be... I'll personally not be touching any other motor mounts until they eventually need replacing. Don't know if there's any benefit to be had from going any stiffer with the torque arm bushings than the stock bushing with the NM insert. I am certain that a strong arm itself isn't necessary at stock power levels, making the BSH arm simply a potential solution for a stiffer bushing. I have no experience with it and there aren't published durometer readings for comparison, so I can't even say how much stiffer it is, let alone what effects it has on NVH or performance/feel over my current setup.

Only other bushing I'm considering replacing (before its time) is the rear front lower control arm bushing... If/when I do that it'll be with a poly bushing. There's the ALTA PSRS replacement available, but it seems like that would be a little too harsh for a daily driver.

Both the coupe and the Clubman are non-S, so will have basically the same engine - the '11 is rated at 4 more hp, but I'd bet that's less than the potential real world difference between one engine and another rolling off the assembly line. I believe the weight difference is ~180 lbs, so about a passenger's worth.

I'm fairly new to MINIs, but am on my 3rd Miata... Wheel weight makes a big difference there as well, with ride as well as acceleration. I've looked at wheel options for the MINI with an eye on the weight, as I was planning on replacing the wheels on the coupe when the tires needed replacing... I know that smaller diameter wheels will improve acceleration and might go that route for a second set of shoes if I ever decide to autox the MINI (though that's one of the things I've got the Miata for), but appearance-wise I don't think I'd want anything smaller than 16 for everyday use... There are a number of decent looking lightweight 16" wheels out there (not lighter than their 15" counterparts, but lighter than stock MINI 15" wheels for sure), so I'd likely choose one of those options.

As for the stock wheels, I was surprised to find that the 17" Bullet Star wheels that the Clubman is coming with are within .3 pounds (can't remember off hand if it's more or less) of the 16" Crown Spokes on my current coupe. Both are crazy heavy at over 20 pounds, but assuming the tires are similar in weight there shouldn't be a noticeable difference in acceleration between the two... Expect the shorter sidewall will have some amount of negative impact on ride quality and improvement on turn-in when cornering.

Exactly what I was speaking of. Not sure why they decided that bit should contrast with the rest of the car, but I'm not a fan. The "White Silver Edition" Clubman has the option of two tone (black on top, silver on the bottom) trim that makes it look more like a normal MINI. I don't mind the proportions so much, but I've always been partial to a nice wagon...er..."Estate".

 

I have had the NM inserts in my car for some time now (about 5K miles) and I would tell anyone that if I had to give up this mod, I'd sell the car.

They simply transformed the car and made about a million percent increase in overall driveability. No more hesitation while the power unit "winds up", just hit the pedal, and the car moves away smoothly.

Way told us at one of the Mini events that its a $60 mod that behaves like a $300 mod. I thnk its even better than that.

I have said a couple of places here, and I'll say it again, if you are on the fence about this mod -- especially if you're like me with an automatic -- spend the $60. Its a great improvement. And it literally takes about 15 minutes to install. It took longer to find the wrenches than it did to do the work.

This is a very good product.

(BTW -- when you have the torque arm in your hand, try to imagine breaking it. I simply can't see how it could be done. That's a stout piece of stuff under there. Minis may have all sorts of little headaches, but having a fragile chassis is not one of its faults. They are very well built little cars)

 

Good to hear that the only effect of the torque arm insert is a slight vibration at idle: with start and stop you won't even get that 'cause it stalls at stoplights.



Control arm bushings are definitely a weak spot on many cars but I can't say whether those mounted by BMW on the Mini need to be upgraded, so your looking into this is going to do us all a favor. Normally it shouldn't add too much harshness other than transmitting better road feel - one of the rare weak spots of our cars - I figured it was the steering box which removed most of that but the control arms might have their part.



So the main difference aside from the slight weight increase is going to be the handling dynamics with possibly better highway cruise comfort due to the longer wheelbase while changing the turning radius a tad?



Funny, just yesterday I told my wife that although we'd lost our deposit on a Miata when I lost my job some years ago, now I'd wager that we've got as nice a handling car plus 2 extra seats. How would you compare the Cooper's and the Miata's handling?



Now you've hit the nail on the head regarding the Mini dilemma: They are great sports cars, but they also look superb. This means that you are going to have qualms pushing them to the limit with Sports Mods because they will occasionally come at the sacrifice of some of that beauty. Like most other car owners might say, a nice problem to have.



It's a shame that you can't order your Mini, with all of the incredible customization choices they offer, with proper lightweight optional rims... Since you know a lot about Mini wheel sizes so I am hoping you can tell me something about those on this car I will be test driving next weekend. They look like 15 inchers and I hope they are alloys, since they'll be selling the demo car 'As Is'.






That is one sweet Clubman! Hopefully they will start offering a color matching trim option on all Clubman orders given that it almost always looks a bit strange breaking the aesthetic line of the car when seen from a rear angle. Possibly this was intended to distinguish it from 'regular' Minis but now that its visibility is established on the market possibly they could bring their attention back to making a nice looking a car as possible? At least on the inside it still looks like a Mini, I was startled by the Countryman's interior looking like some other brand car - and not a BMW either.

 

Not an option for those of us in the States, but a good point.

[quote]Funny, just yesterday I told my wife that although we'd lost our deposit on a Miata when I lost my job some years ago, now I'd wager that we've got as nice a handling car plus 2 extra seats. How would you compare the Cooper's and the Miata's handling?[quote]

I'm probably not the best to say as I haven't really pushed my Cooper (no autox or track), nor have I driven an NC (latest gen) Miata (sat in one, felt cramped, didn't like the seats or the height of the doors and back of the cabin). Vs. the prior two generations of Miata, both being stock, the Cooper feels more planted and solid when maneuvering and is very confidence inspiring and quick, but suffers from horrible understeer and (even on a Justa) quite a lot of torque steer (which I'm hoping they've done away with on the 2011s like they claim). A stock Miata with a proper alignment and tires equivalent to the stock MINI all seasons would be relatively neutral compared to the MINI but less composed over any kind of road variations as well. Both are excellent compared to most other cars out there, and the shortcomings of either are for the most part easily remedied (or at least, in the MINIs case, I hear they are - a bigger rear sway bar is on my wish list).

Those appear to be the 16's... The 15" twin spoke wheels only have 5 spokes (sets of spokes?), not 6. Haven't seen a weight on them (they're new for 2011), but would guess in the 19-20 lb range.

 

WoW - this is amazing. Over here I couldn't get Mission Control which is the Camden special series' main marketing feature in the USA, and over there you can't get Stop and Start which is Mini's main marketing feature here.



I recently sold a Lincoln Continental due to excessive torque steer with 280 horsies tugging the car hard to the left when accelerating - not good under speed in a sharp curve. Not having taken my Justa above 4000 rpm (justa startin' to break her in) I couldn't detect any torque steer, which probably comes on only when revving very high?



Which size rear sway bar are you going for, 19mm or 22mm, are there trade-offs for each or just different price points? And this prevents the torque steer you mentioned? I imagine that this sway bar along with the torque arm bushing are the two best handling mods you can do to a stock Justa.



Thanks for giving your estimate of their size and weight. That smaller diameter should work better than 17 inchers since it is an automatic, losing some of its torque through the transmission. Hopefully it isn't shod with the notorious runflats! I hated them on the Mayfair S that we test drove, it made it feel like a sled. Were one to buy this car would it be smart to ask for other wheels than these? I wouldn't know which to request, other options possibly being less good a match for this car's transmission or suspension, as I imagine that drop top R57s were designed differently to reinforce their chassis.


Also I'll stay posted to learn one day what switching to lower control arm poly bushing changes about the car. I'll have to wait at least until the break-in period is up once I get too familiar with the car's handling limits before I feel the need to tweak it - at under 4000 rpm it feels Justa Right!

 

If you're taking it easy on it you probably won't experience it. It's most noticeable under hard acceleration.

Based on what I've read from others, a rear sway bar on the MINI will help with the understeer. If you're getting a 2011, they've supposedly made some changes to the software for this year that take care of the torque steer. I've read good things about the NM 22mm sway bar, and am planning to give that one a shot myself.

The overall diameter of the wheel/tire combo is going to be more or less identical whether you get 15, 16 or 17" wheels. To get a smaller overall diameter you'd have to get lower profile tires on the smaller wheels.

You can find the various wheel options that have been available stock on a MINI here: http://www.mini2.com/forum/faq.php?faq=faq_wheels_tyres. MotoringFile has a pic with all of the available 2011 wheels in their coverage of the design refresh here: http://www.motoringfile.com/2010/07/...efresh-wheels/

If the dealer is really desperate for the sale they might swap wheels with another car on the lot for you, but I wouldn't expect most dealers to do that. If you're concerned about weight, the "5 Star Spooler" 15" wheels are likely the lightest, but fairly unattractive, IMO. I'd go with whatever looks best to you as you're going to end up wanting aftermarket wheels if lightness is a concern. Some relatively inexpensive aftermarket 15" wheels can get down below 10 pounds, and the (ugly) 5 Star Spoolers are almost 14.

 

Hi Grueinthebox,


I guess that the "software solution" which Mini has programmed for the 2011 cars may just use a 'governor' to reduce acceleration as soon as it gets near the limits where torque steer starts? I would much prefer to fix this issue with better chassis resistance with a sway bar than electronically limit how much power gets to the road! But sway bar or not, I wonder if dealerships are going to be adding this sort of programming by default to older Minis (2006-2010) when they flash their computer with updates?


A heavy foot is one of the nicer things about sports driving, not in a straight line, mind you, where the only sensation is a kick in the backside unless you are on a very bumpy road, but especially in the bends of winding roads.


So I will eventually be wanting to add a 22mm rear sway bar to my 2010 Camden Cooper because I don't like swerving off the road when pumping in the power in a tight curve taken to its limits. I'm glad this sway bar is such an easy fix for a 2010 Mini and I even wonder if those with 2011s aren't going to want to flash their car to 2010 software once they add that sway bar?


Regarding handling, I've heard that Bilstein PSS9 Coilovers (part# GM5-A068-H2) do wonders as well as smooth out the ride improving comfort. However I haven't found a vendor and it is supposed to be somewhat pricy? Probably full coilovers with camber plates won't be needed unless going all out road racing ~ unless that mod provides a great measure of increased driving pleasure when tooling around country roads near the car's limits?


Unless one can find a lucky deal for coilovers, it would seem that your recommended handling mods are probably the most rational way to go, with according to one's budget the possible addition of Bilstein HD Shocks or an H&R Touring Cup kit? If one of these improves the ride while at the same time dialing in road-racer handling, it would be a no brainer for folks who want a 'double duty' family car.



Thanks for the link to Mini wheels! This could help if ordering a car which isn't already in stock. Also it enables you to see which one might look best, but I guess it all depends on body style and especially colors and trim...


I agree that smaller wheels with lower profile tires such as the Bridgestone Potenza Assymetrical which I love would stick with. Half of the tire is ridged parallel to the road giving you great tracking and the half of the tread mounted to the outside is ridged diagonally to give you great cornering grip. I'm sold since it glues you to the road even without using torque acceleration to help grip - remember this is the break-in period and I corner fast but without gunning the engine so that wouldn't normally help keep the car glued to the pavement. Yes, this is my first Mini so I can't say how different these tires are to others except for the runflats tested out on the Cooper S which I didn't get a chance to corner hard with anyways.


However the Asymmetrical Bridgestone Potenza RE050A isn't available, as are not many performance tires, for 15" rims. There are also fewer widths and profiles available for 16" rims, here they are:

195/45R16
195/45R16XL
205/55R16
215/55R16
225/50R16


Since you told me you were not at all pleased with your Cooper's handling using wider 215 spec tires, I would want to avoid that as well as the 225 width. This leaves the 205/55R16 which gives an even larger total diameter than my current 17 inch rims, making the narrower 195/45R16 tires the only way of keeping this superb performing tire while reducing the total diameter for better acceleration.


According to the Miata tire comparison tool the 195/45R16 tire reduces total diameter by 5.6% which should translate into a livelier chirp when power shifting.


Miata Tire Calculator


The Asymmetrical Bridgestone Potenza RE050A in 195/45R16 can be chosen in either regular or XL version for heavier vehicles. While I know full well that the Mini is about the lightest car out there, given its probably more rigid sidewall I wonder what better or worse ride and handling characteristics the XL might provide?



My dealer isn't an independent dealer but is Mini's national showroom. They've got BMW's financial backing so they aren't desperate for sales, but I did get a good deal from them only because it was an in stock leftover 2010 taking up room on their showroom floor. They were motivated to make space to showcase the new 2011 Minis.


So one of their demos might be a decent deal because, since they are the brand itself, they want their demos to be mint and don't let employees drive them, plus they replace them every 3 months with a brand new car. While the one we're going to test drive will be an option in a couple of months, I'd rather wait and see what the new diesel Mini Cooper DS punches out in terms of killer torque.


A second Mini would be great, especially if it contrasts by being a very different car to drive than the Justa Cooper. An automatic diesel cabriolet or a Clubman would do that. But maybe I'll hate the way a diesel drives, I really should try to drive a regular Cooper D or even a One D first. I hear the Cooper D and the One D drive by me every day, and from the curbside they sound like they shake and rattle when the engine fires up again when the Stop and Start feature restarts it. On the gasoline Cooper it feels as if it has stalled, but you just ignore this and take off as if nothing had happened. It only delays you a second or so when it restarts automatically, then responding to the accelerator pedal without any lag.



I wonder how much wheel weight impacts acceleration versus total tire diameter. I know it does change unsprung weight in terms of the car's dynamic handling but this part of the Mini seems to well designed already that maybe it wouldn't do all that much for performance? In any case I'd need to stick with 16 inchers if I want those Potenzas, so if they come on the car it is a lot cheaper here in exorbitant Europe to only change the rubber.


While I'm not really in purchase mode, this demo does have my favorite paint and leather in hot chocolate. But it is more to test out the experience of a convertible Mini as well as an automatic Mini in city traffic. Here it isn't standard practice to test drive a car, many purchases being made without a test drive. Before buying the Camden they did offer me a choice of driving a 95hp Mini One or a Countryman with the 120hp engine.


Since I was buying a Mini hatch and not a Countryman, I took them up on the Mini One test drive and found its ride was more nimble even with its detuned engine than that Cooper S with runflats I drove in Geneva. This decided me to go with the Justa Cooper which turned out was even more fun to drive, although I don't know if this is thanks to its extra pep, taller rims, better tires, different suspension which comes with the sport button option (?) or maybe a combination of the above.


This Cooper has enthused me so much that I am toying with the idea of becoming a 2 Mini family ~ maybe. Maybe the Cooper is the best balanced of all Mini's models, but the forthcoming diesel Cooper S with its BMW engine will might give this car an entirely different character, turning it into a Mini Muscle Car ?


If BMW's 2 liter diesel engines are sold in the USA, then there's no technical reason why the diesel Mini Cooper SD couldn't also be - unless high demand in Europe delays it being offered right away in the States. Once I learn more, I'll keep you posted.