Drivetrain Hybrid K03 Turbocharger
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 222
Likes: 2
Tuning in Greece
Have a look at this...
It might help
http://www.etuners.gr/en/index.php?s=13&t=219
And that...
http://www.etuners.gr/en/index.php?s=13&t=261
And that...
http://www.etuners.gr/en/index.php?s=13&t=265
Actually the last configuration is pretty much the same as my car.
If you browse a little on their website you can also find a cinfiguration with a JCW turbo in a Cooper S which can make 250bhp, where as the stock Cooper s turbo can only go to 230-240 maximum.
It might help
http://www.etuners.gr/en/index.php?s=13&t=219
And that...
http://www.etuners.gr/en/index.php?s=13&t=261
And that...
http://www.etuners.gr/en/index.php?s=13&t=265
Actually the last configuration is pretty much the same as my car.
If you browse a little on their website you can also find a cinfiguration with a JCW turbo in a Cooper S which can make 250bhp, where as the stock Cooper s turbo can only go to 230-240 maximum.
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Pendleton Indiana
So I have a 2009 jcw so it will flow more than 19psi ? I feel like it really falls on it's face at 5k on up so I feel like it's out of it's efficiency range there but that is probably due to the stock tune I'm getting the cobb access port soon and custom turbo back exhaust I've heard that really makes the turbo wake up on these cars
Wait that's what he did?? he had a JCW and bought a MCS Turbo to modify? no offense but what was he thinking? the JCW turbo is perfect for the MCS!!!!! the only reason i went hybrid was cuz i had a budget that couldn't get a $1000 turbo...
i still wouldn't get the GT25 (i believe alta used a GT2560R instead of the GT2554... but i remember outright that the spool was WAY off... it wasn't till like 4000 that any power came BUT once the power was there itwas WAY up there.... so you'd ahve the rev the crap out of your engine to get the most out of it and for those who are used to the lower end torque and now a race style turbo setup (higher revs higher power... u already know that thumper but some others may not...) the bigger turbo just may not be what they're looking for in terms of daily driving which is why i still suggest hybrid/JCW turbos... i would be extremely curious to see if my hybrid can flow a little more than the JCW turbo... i have to get a compressor map for mine somehow... because i know that some tunes the JCW turbo flows decently at 24 PSI on some JCWs... if i did my math correctly i think my turbo compressor wheel will flow the same while being in a higher efficiency plateau in the compressor map (that's just going off the maps i've seen for the K04-024 wheel... the fact that my housings are different that the turbo it's usually in will effect the characteristis). but yeah... thumper, if you're ever in the philly area and wanna crash at my place for a weekend, i'd love to swap info and maybe turbos for a day and see what the difference is between the two, or just drive yours and vice versa
Just curious, since you're running JCW turbo on yours, did you notice lack of spool? my power comes on just 200 rpms later than with the stock setup, and i can't for the life of me see why my torque is so much lower... not going to complain, my tires hate me no matter what even with traction control on, but the power seems so linear up till 3500 then it's just forget about it ahahah (that's one point where i'm making more than 60whp more than my untuned stage 4 setup and at old readline it's 98whp more than the untuned version...
i wonder if the failing O2 sensor could be making the power difference.... cuz if it's reading something different for AFR than what actually is that'll screw with power and timing and all that...
i still wouldn't get the GT25 (i believe alta used a GT2560R instead of the GT2554... but i remember outright that the spool was WAY off... it wasn't till like 4000 that any power came BUT once the power was there itwas WAY up there.... so you'd ahve the rev the crap out of your engine to get the most out of it and for those who are used to the lower end torque and now a race style turbo setup (higher revs higher power... u already know that thumper but some others may not...) the bigger turbo just may not be what they're looking for in terms of daily driving which is why i still suggest hybrid/JCW turbos... i would be extremely curious to see if my hybrid can flow a little more than the JCW turbo... i have to get a compressor map for mine somehow... because i know that some tunes the JCW turbo flows decently at 24 PSI on some JCWs... if i did my math correctly i think my turbo compressor wheel will flow the same while being in a higher efficiency plateau in the compressor map (that's just going off the maps i've seen for the K04-024 wheel... the fact that my housings are different that the turbo it's usually in will effect the characteristis). but yeah... thumper, if you're ever in the philly area and wanna crash at my place for a weekend, i'd love to swap info and maybe turbos for a day and see what the difference is between the two, or just drive yours and vice versa
Just curious, since you're running JCW turbo on yours, did you notice lack of spool? my power comes on just 200 rpms later than with the stock setup, and i can't for the life of me see why my torque is so much lower... not going to complain, my tires hate me no matter what even with traction control on, but the power seems so linear up till 3500 then it's just forget about it ahahah (that's one point where i'm making more than 60whp more than my untuned stage 4 setup and at old readline it's 98whp more than the untuned version...
i wonder if the failing O2 sensor could be making the power difference.... cuz if it's reading something different for AFR than what actually is that'll screw with power and timing and all that...
The 54 will spool faster than the 60, but flow slightly less. And yea, you'd still have more lag than you have with our K03/K04 based turbos.
But nope no lack of spool here...in fact, I think there is less lag with the JCW turbo than I had on the stock one! It's probably how its tuned right now, but it spools almost instantly to 20psi and holds it. It will flow more than that (as you said 22-24psi) and make almost 30hp & 50 trq more than where it is right now. It's the high torque that makes it so ridiculous....right now my numbers are basically the reverse of yours (hp vs trq). And although it's making similar peak numbers to a tuned factory JCW right now...it makes almost 40 ft-lbs to the wheels more off-idle/at the start of the dyno run than a JCW. (mmmm compression...) Tune it on meth or 100-octane to really take advantage of the increased compression, and you'd see that dramatic increase across the board, most likely on top of the 30hp/50trq we're expecting on 91....would be a complete animal.
And I'd love to take you up on the swap offer, but I don't think my car will ever see the East Coast! Haha, if I'm ever in Philly though I'd definitely make a pit stop at your place for a spin in the car.
Last edited by ThumperMCS; Nov 29, 2010 at 01:09 PM.
The 54 will spool faster than the 60, but flow slightly less. And yea, you'd still have more lag than you have with our K03/K04 based turbos.
But nope no lack of spool here...in fact, I think there is less lag with the JCW turbo than I had on the stock one! It's probably how its tuned right now, but it spools almost instantly to 20psi and holds it. It will flow more than that (as you said 22-24psi) and make almost 30hp & 50 trq more than where it is right now. It's the high torque that makes it so ridiculous....right now my numbers are basically the reverse of yours (hp vs trq). And although it's making similar peak numbers to a tuned factory JCW right now...it makes almost 40 ft-lbs to the wheels more off-idle/at the start of the dyno run than a JCW. (mmmm compression...) Tune it on meth or 100-octane to really take advantage of the increased compression, and you'd see that dramatic increase across the board, most likely on top of the 30hp/50trq we're expecting on 91....would be a complete animal.
And I'd love to take you up on the swap offer, but I don't think my car will ever see the East Coast! Haha, if I'm ever in Philly though I'd definitely make a pit stop at your place for a spin in the car.
But nope no lack of spool here...in fact, I think there is less lag with the JCW turbo than I had on the stock one! It's probably how its tuned right now, but it spools almost instantly to 20psi and holds it. It will flow more than that (as you said 22-24psi) and make almost 30hp & 50 trq more than where it is right now. It's the high torque that makes it so ridiculous....right now my numbers are basically the reverse of yours (hp vs trq). And although it's making similar peak numbers to a tuned factory JCW right now...it makes almost 40 ft-lbs to the wheels more off-idle/at the start of the dyno run than a JCW. (mmmm compression...) Tune it on meth or 100-octane to really take advantage of the increased compression, and you'd see that dramatic increase across the board, most likely on top of the 30hp/50trq we're expecting on 91....would be a complete animal.
And I'd love to take you up on the swap offer, but I don't think my car will ever see the East Coast! Haha, if I'm ever in Philly though I'd definitely make a pit stop at your place for a spin in the car.
girlfriend gets a little sick of me and my car talk hahahaha but getting back to your saying about tuning and meth, i'm thinking about going meth kit (donno what one tho..) and one thing we have out here that you'll love is 93 octane
i welcome the company and fellow car enthusiasm girlfriend gets a little sick of me and my car talk hahahaha
but getting back to your saying about tuning and meth, i'm thinking about going meth kit (donno what one tho..) and one thing we have out here that you'll love is 93 octane
girlfriend gets a little sick of me and my car talk hahahaha but getting back to your saying about tuning and meth, i'm thinking about going meth kit (donno what one tho..) and one thing we have out here that you'll love is 93 octane
Without a doubt....
Can someone please explain to me exactly how water/meth setups work and what they do? I keep reading about it and keep searching all over online but it seems as though everything is very broad.
I don't want to hijack this thread, so if someone wants to shoot me a PM, start a new thread, or quote me with a good link, that would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
I don't want to hijack this thread, so if someone wants to shoot me a PM, start a new thread, or quote me with a good link, that would be much appreciated.
Thanks!
See page 48 of the following link for what seems to be a Upgrade to the JCW Turbo available from the Turbocharger manufacturer:
http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf...alog_SMALL.pdf
http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf...alog_SMALL.pdf
See page 48 of the following link for what seems to be a Upgrade to the JCW Turbo available from the Turbocharger manufacturer:
http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf...alog_SMALL.pdf
http://www.turbodriven.com/files/pdf...alog_SMALL.pdf
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Miami, Florida Sunshine
Well, things that people might need to calculate besides Turbo & cranking PSI/Kpa values; it's calculating the N14B16 Engine Volumetric Efficiency (VE) to get an estimated amount of Pressure ratio needed.
Let's say a stock Type-R Honda K20 (1998.23cc) engine gets VE of 99% will get 240Hp SAE @ 8400rpm with 24.5m/s MPS. The engine cylinder head formula will need 296.91CFM. Most of the Flowbench we have tested on a K20, it will flow +-3 CFM off this value! The K20 engine makes over 100Hp per liter (it makes 125Hp per liter, since other factors i.e.: cr, cams, light weight materials etc. besides head helps!)
The stock N14B16 (Displ. 1597.15cc = 97.5256Ci) cylinder head will peak on our Flowbench with 28" of H2O at 133CFM (w/o the carbon build up=). Using a manufacture formula (used by Honda/Borg Warner) for estimated corrected VE, it has a 74% efficiency @ 133CFM for 6500rpm with 18.59m/s MPS With an Aprox ~118Hp
If the head of the N14B16 where to be reworked for VE of 99% efficiency it will need 181.59CFM-244 CFM for 6500rpm-8740rpm with 18.59m/s to 25m/s MPS. To get closer to the 100 hp per liter VE mark for the Cylinder head only! Off course the N14 it's limited besides the cylinder head that will not currently reach this mark all motor.
I don't think we can see 300-350 HP SAE on a Dynojet at the wheels while cranking the boost beyond +22psi. You will end up maxing the stock DME Kpa sensor & the engine Cylinder head it's limited to VE. Since more PSI after certain point does not equal more Volume per cylinder stroke.
Let's say a stock Type-R Honda K20 (1998.23cc) engine gets VE of 99% will get 240Hp SAE @ 8400rpm with 24.5m/s MPS. The engine cylinder head formula will need 296.91CFM. Most of the Flowbench we have tested on a K20, it will flow +-3 CFM off this value! The K20 engine makes over 100Hp per liter (it makes 125Hp per liter, since other factors i.e.: cr, cams, light weight materials etc. besides head helps!)
The stock N14B16 (Displ. 1597.15cc = 97.5256Ci) cylinder head will peak on our Flowbench with 28" of H2O at 133CFM (w/o the carbon build up=). Using a manufacture formula (used by Honda/Borg Warner) for estimated corrected VE, it has a 74% efficiency @ 133CFM for 6500rpm with 18.59m/s MPS With an Aprox ~118Hp
If the head of the N14B16 where to be reworked for VE of 99% efficiency it will need 181.59CFM-244 CFM for 6500rpm-8740rpm with 18.59m/s to 25m/s MPS. To get closer to the 100 hp per liter VE mark for the Cylinder head only! Off course the N14 it's limited besides the cylinder head that will not currently reach this mark all motor.
I don't think we can see 300-350 HP SAE on a Dynojet at the wheels while cranking the boost beyond +22psi. You will end up maxing the stock DME Kpa sensor & the engine Cylinder head it's limited to VE. Since more PSI after certain point does not equal more Volume per cylinder stroke.
Last edited by m54b25; Dec 1, 2010 at 08:07 AM.
Manufacturer
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
So I have a 2009 jcw so it will flow more than 19psi ? I feel like it really falls on it's face at 5k on up so I feel like it's out of it's efficiency range there but that is probably due to the stock tune I'm getting the access port soon and custom turbo back exhaust I've heard that really makes the turbo wake up on these cars
There is only one way to get rid of the drop off in power, and this is the solution to that.......
3rd Gear
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 161
Likes: 2
From: IL
The JCW does fall on its face above 5000 in stock form. What you are feeling it TQ dropping off. Even with our ALTA AccessPORT and tune it drops but still makes more power. Here is a graph for you to see that.
There is only one way to get rid of the drop off in power, and this is the solution to that.......
There is only one way to get rid of the drop off in power, and this is the solution to that.......
hahahaha i KNOW how ya feel man :P i'm not JCW but running basically the exact same setup on my car
went from stock:
To Hybrid:
if you nix O2 sensor, Electronic BOV, wastegate, and HPFP malfunctions (none of which were due to turbo tho....) it works great :P just waiting for O2 sensor to be replaced (every other issue has been addressed already) to smooth out my tune...
went from stock:
To Hybrid:
if you nix O2 sensor, Electronic BOV, wastegate, and HPFP malfunctions (none of which were due to turbo tho....) it works great :P just waiting for O2 sensor to be replaced (every other issue has been addressed already) to smooth out my tune...
Last edited by dunphyj; Dec 3, 2010 at 12:23 AM.
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Miami, Florida Sunshine
Well, a few combination of turbo we have tested & looking to test (donor car needed) for the following on our Dynojet:
a) R56 S turbo K03 38mm inducer: Great for low end & good for 208-211 Hp SAE at the wheels on a Dynojet -Test done-
b) JCW R56 S turbo: Unknow to us yet in Miami, FL... JCW owners superiority syndrome to non-JCW has kept this car off our Dynojet -Tester welcome-
c) Borg Warner JCW Upgrade Turbo K03-2074D aka. JCW Challenge Turbo (Pn: 5303 988 0146) 255Hp flywheel rated (Aprox ~220-225Hp SAE at the wheels: Very promising turbo for the bang buck & peace of mind bolt on -Tester welcome-
d) R56 S turbo K03 42mm compressor & 5mm turbine increase K04 Hybrid: Good for 238Hp-245 Hp SAE at the wheels on a Dynojet tested @ 18.7psi with no noticeable low end loss vs. stock K03. -Test done-
c) R56 S turbo K03 46.5mm compressor & 5.5mm turbine increase K04/K06S Hybrid billet: Some lag at low end <5000rpm compared to stock K03 but shines past 5000rpm -On Testing some time in December-
Will be testing some 'Bigger' replacement compressor Housings with turbo speed sensor & anti-surge housings, since are encountering compressor surging on stock K03 housings @3500-4000rpm at higher boost levels for this small turbos.
-Also, we are willing to test/review other nice turbo setups seen on this forum =), just send us the turbo & will review it on our Dynojet! Since we want to see the best turbo for the N14b16-
a) R56 S turbo K03 38mm inducer: Great for low end & good for 208-211 Hp SAE at the wheels on a Dynojet -Test done-
b) JCW R56 S turbo: Unknow to us yet in Miami, FL... JCW owners superiority syndrome to non-JCW has kept this car off our Dynojet -Tester welcome-
c) Borg Warner JCW Upgrade Turbo K03-2074D aka. JCW Challenge Turbo (Pn: 5303 988 0146) 255Hp flywheel rated (Aprox ~220-225Hp SAE at the wheels: Very promising turbo for the bang buck & peace of mind bolt on -Tester welcome-
d) R56 S turbo K03 42mm compressor & 5mm turbine increase K04 Hybrid: Good for 238Hp-245 Hp SAE at the wheels on a Dynojet tested @ 18.7psi with no noticeable low end loss vs. stock K03. -Test done-
c) R56 S turbo K03 46.5mm compressor & 5.5mm turbine increase K04/K06S Hybrid billet: Some lag at low end <5000rpm compared to stock K03 but shines past 5000rpm -On Testing some time in December-
Will be testing some 'Bigger' replacement compressor Housings with turbo speed sensor & anti-surge housings, since are encountering compressor surging on stock K03 housings @3500-4000rpm at higher boost levels for this small turbos.
-Also, we are willing to test/review other nice turbo setups seen on this forum =), just send us the turbo & will review it on our Dynojet! Since we want to see the best turbo for the N14b16-
Last edited by m54b25; Dec 3, 2010 at 10:46 AM.
I thought B and C are the same thing. Part number fitted to the JCW is the 2074 or 5303 988 0146 and on the MCS is 5303 988 0118.
SO am I correct in asking if D is better than B or C (if the same). So what would the cost of making a standard MCS turbo (A) into D rather than buying B or C (if the same thing) if such improvements are better than simply just going down the JCW turbo route.
I guess D cannot be done to the JCW Turbo or not worth it if having to purchase the turbo and get it worked on compared to working on a MCS turbo that most of us will already have.
And I presume there could be an exchange programme so car is not off the road waiting for the work to be done on the turbo? A simple swap out and send the old turbo back for a refund of a core charge?
SO am I correct in asking if D is better than B or C (if the same). So what would the cost of making a standard MCS turbo (A) into D rather than buying B or C (if the same thing) if such improvements are better than simply just going down the JCW turbo route.
I guess D cannot be done to the JCW Turbo or not worth it if having to purchase the turbo and get it worked on compared to working on a MCS turbo that most of us will already have.
And I presume there could be an exchange programme so car is not off the road waiting for the work to be done on the turbo? A simple swap out and send the old turbo back for a refund of a core charge?
2nd Gear
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 66
Likes: 0
From: Miami, Florida Sunshine
I thought B and C are the same thing. Part number fitted to the JCW is the 2074 or 5303 988 0146 and on the MCS is 5303 988 0118.
SO am I correct in asking if D is better than B or C (if the same). So what would the cost of making a standard MCS turbo (A) into D rather than buying B or C (if the same thing) if such improvements are better than simply just going down the JCW turbo route.
I guess D cannot be done to the JCW Turbo or not worth it if having to purchase the turbo and get it worked on compared to working on a MCS turbo that most of us will already have.
And I presume there could be an exchange programme so car is not off the road waiting for the work to be done on the turbo? A simple swap out and send the old turbo back for a refund of a core charge?
SO am I correct in asking if D is better than B or C (if the same). So what would the cost of making a standard MCS turbo (A) into D rather than buying B or C (if the same thing) if such improvements are better than simply just going down the JCW turbo route.
I guess D cannot be done to the JCW Turbo or not worth it if having to purchase the turbo and get it worked on compared to working on a MCS turbo that most of us will already have.
And I presume there could be an exchange programme so car is not off the road waiting for the work to be done on the turbo? A simple swap out and send the old turbo back for a refund of a core charge?
So far the K03 38mm to K04 42mm w/turbine 5mm upgrade hybrid has given good results on the Dynojet for the R56 S (non-JCW) tested. The K06S Billet 46.5mm run great on the road with some low in low end ~10ftlb at the wheels between 3500rpm-5000rpm compared to the K04 Hybrid. Some more testing will be done to the turbine housing.
Last edited by m54b25; Dec 3, 2010 at 12:01 PM.
I have a spare Cooper S turbo sitting around but where can I get my turbo modified to these specs?
Hi Guys, I havent been able to save up the cash for the AP yet so I can not comment on that. Howevr on the water/Meth I can tell you that Alta sells a great system, its realatively inexpesive compared to others and works great.
With the water\meth the car does not fall on its face ever. Mine keeps pulling hard untill its bouncing off the rev limmiter, (not that I would ever do that).
Im in CA and we have 91 octane BAD GAS, so its extra helpfull here. But the Alta Water\Meth system has been a great purchase for me and it helps with carbon deposits also.
Now wait untill I save up for the AP and I will tell you all how that works
OK, OK, back on topic...... I justwanted to let you know that the falling on your face part can be fixed relatively easily.
With the water\meth the car does not fall on its face ever. Mine keeps pulling hard untill its bouncing off the rev limmiter, (not that I would ever do that).
Im in CA and we have 91 octane BAD GAS, so its extra helpfull here. But the Alta Water\Meth system has been a great purchase for me and it helps with carbon deposits also.
Now wait untill I save up for the AP and I will tell you all how that works
OK, OK, back on topic...... I justwanted to let you know that the falling on your face part can be fixed relatively easily.
b) JCW R56 S turbo: Unknow to us yet in Miami, FL... JCW owners superiority syndrome to non-JCW has kept this car off our Dynojet
c) Borg Warner JCW Upgrade Turbo K03-2074D aka. JCW Challenge Turbo (Pn: 5303 988 0146) 255Hp flywheel rated (Aprox ~220-225Hp SAE at the wheels: Very promising turbo for the bang buck & peace of mind bolt on -Tester welcome-
c) Borg Warner JCW Upgrade Turbo K03-2074D aka. JCW Challenge Turbo (Pn: 5303 988 0146) 255Hp flywheel rated (Aprox ~220-225Hp SAE at the wheels: Very promising turbo for the bang buck & peace of mind bolt on -Tester welcome-
The p/n on mine is 5303 988 0146. The compressor wheel is supposedly ~41mm. Never had the opportunity to measure though.
Manufacturer
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 995
Likes: 0
From: Oregon
The Challenge turbo(never had my hands on it) should be the same as the JCW turbo. The Compressor map for the JCW turbo shows it flows about 25lbs/min of air (250 engine HP) which is more than the JCW is rated for. Just like the MCS turbo is rated for 210HP.
1st Gear
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
From: Pendleton Indiana
Well I can't wait to ride in a few of these minis putting down about 260whp I would love to see about 325 whp out of my car some day it would be amazing down some straight sways and pulling out of corners in third just being stuck in your seat!!