 |
Welcome to North American Motoring, the North American MINI Community of owners and enthusiasts!
You are currently viewing our boards as a guest which gives you limited access to view most discussions, articles and photo galleries. By joining our free community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other MINI enthusiasts (PM), respond to polls, upload your own photo gallery and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join our community today!
If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact our support team.
|
|
Welcome to North American Motoring ! |
|
|
Welcome to North American Motoring,
You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, at no cost, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!
|
» Main Menu |
|
|
|
 |
 |
|

08-15-2008, 01:47 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
|
Intercooler Cooling Tests
Ok,
I was finally able to get all the information we gathered into graphs and in a post-able format. I'm on my lunch at work so sorry if this is a bit rushed but I felt like I should at least get the info out to you after so long.
Please people keep in mind that were just a couple guys that are passionate about our Mini's and how they operate. I have no formal experience with intercooler testing or parts testing of any nature. We did this for fun and to get a some basic cooling information from the IC's we tested.
That being said lets get started!
We tested the following Intercoolers:
M7 DFIC V2
AltaV2 Flow Through
Forge
GRS
Stock
How we tested them:
-10 Channel Data Logger recording Ambient, Inlet, Outlet of IC
-ScanGuage II
-RPM's revved to 6800 under full throttle
-We did a full boost run onto a freeway gears 1-4
-The rest of the runs (ranging from 2-3 runs depending on conditions and traffic) were on the freeway between gears 3-4 at wide open throttle.
-We did one final run for each intercooler on a freeway ramp 1-4 gears after the intercoolers and intake manifold were heat soaked. (We soaked each for 8 min)
-Outside is Ambient
-Inlet is air from super charger into intercooler
-Outlet is air leaving intercooler going to the intake manifold
Here is the testbed and intercoolers
M7 DFIC V2 (For some reason our software glitched during the last run as you can see. The colors of the graph switched on us but the data is still accurate)
Alta V2 Flow Through
GRS
Forge
Stock
Im sure that there will be questions and believe me, I'll do the best I can to answer them so feel free to ask
I have to say that it was really fun doing this. It was very cool watching the temps and seeing how differently the intercoolers were. One thing came very clear to us early on. Testing is far from easy... so many variables to consider. We tried to make everything as consistent and repeatable as possible.
Anyway, I hope this info is able to help more than hinder. Looking at the graphs and numbers you'll be able to see the intercoolers that actually cooled the air. Pretty cool stuff. I want to thank Peter from M7 for lending me his testing equipment. I also want to thank those of you that let me use your intercoolers! Thanks everyone
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
Last edited by Intense : 08-15-2008 at 02:55 PM.
Reason: Spelling and Grammar...
|

08-15-2008, 01:55 PM
|
 |
My little dose of LITHIUM
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Posts: 2,433
Gallery
|
|
|
This is fantastic! Thank you so much for doing this. All I can say is that I believe your numbers, as I have seen similar data from my logger for the last 2 years...
Again, you won't get any argument or complaints from me.
Read 'em and weep...
__________________
dr. phil
|

08-15-2008, 02:02 PM
|
 |
4th Gear
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 352
Gallery
|
|
Oh nice, finally! thank u so much 
__________________
 02 MCS CR/W #268
|

08-15-2008, 02:07 PM
|
 |
4th Gear
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: San Juan, PR
Posts: 595
Gallery
|
|
|
Nice job :thumbs up:
From my non-professional/expert eye it seems the (GRS/stock/FORGE) do a better job of cooling but at the expense of pressure drop, no?
__________________
 2005 DS/B MCS w/LSD, MMC #455, DSOC #113
Stock: Loaded, xept nav and cold
Mods: almost none (link)
|

08-15-2008, 02:15 PM
|
|
Vendor
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: oh10
Posts: 8,147
Gallery
|
|
Props to you for taking on this project and going all the way through with it. Very respectable 
|

08-15-2008, 02:30 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by MiniMacPR
Nice job :thumbs up:
From my non-professional/expert eye it seems the (GRS/stock/FORGE) do a better job of cooling but at the expense of pressure drop, no?
|
There was some slight pressure drop but we really didn't have the proper equipment to test pressure. You can see it in the max boost however.
Just some observations for each intercooler.
-Stock- It cools just fine, as you can see it gets hot fast but it cools of just as fast. We saw temps dip below ambient when cruising
-GRS- Did fantastic across the board, cooled well and recovered well
-Alta- This thing got hot and stayed hot. I think there are design flaws that hinder the cooling capability. The front of the intercooler sits so close to the hood scoop there is no direct path for it to flow thru the bottom part of the IC (I have pictures of the fitment on my camera at home I'll post later)
-Forge- This intercooler cooled well. The weird thing about it was temps at the manifold stayed high between 130-140 even on the freeway.
-M7- Does not cool as well as stock but seemed to recover well. The cars response felt snappier than the others
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
|

08-15-2008, 02:34 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
Thanks for the props everyone  It was a lot of work but it was fun and rewarding!
Hopefully this data will help answer at least some of the questions people have about intercoolers. I know I learned a lot from doing this. Hell, this is the most fun I've ever had with a car 
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
|

08-15-2008, 02:52 PM
|
 |
4th Gear
|
|
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Turkey
Posts: 477
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intense
There was some slight pressure drop but we really didn't have the proper equipment to test pressure. You can see it in the max boost however.
Just some observations for each intercooler.
-Stock- It cools just fine, as you can see it gets hot fast but it cools of just as fast. We saw temps dip below ambient when cruising
-GRS- Did fantastic across the board, cooled well and recovered well
-Alta- This thing got hot and stayed hot. I think there are design flaws that hinder the cooling capability. The front of the intercooler sits so close to the hood scoop there is no direct path for it to flow thru the bottom part of the IC (I have pictures of the fitment on my camera at home I'll post later)
-Forge- This intercooler cooled well. The weird thing about it was temps at the manifold stayed high between 130-140 even on the freeway.
-M7- Does not cool as well as stock but seemed to recover well. The cars response felt snappier than the others
|
What do you mean here is the GRS is the best one is that right?
__________________
Mini Cooper S JCW 06'
|

08-15-2008, 02:55 PM
|
 |
My little dose of LITHIUM
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Posts: 2,433
Gallery
|
|
|
TBH, Intense, what your data and report also show is the high variance observed regardless of conditions. I've always claimed that the variance is so great as to swamp any real differences in IC performance. Your data go a long way to revealing what differences there are, however I would hope that one result of your report is that we all stop worrying so much about what IC we have on our MCSs and concentrate on more important issues. For me that means praying that Jan will find his way closer to Albuquerque so I can get a tune...one day.
__________________
dr. phil
|

08-15-2008, 02:56 PM
|
 |
4th Gear
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 352
Gallery
|
|
after analizing your data... im keeping my stock IC and buying a diverter/sprayer  thanks for the info!!!
__________________
 02 MCS CR/W #268
|

08-15-2008, 03:05 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrPhilGandini
TBH, Intense, what your data and report also show is the high variance observed regardless of conditions. I've always claimed that the variance is so great as to swamp any real differences in IC performance. Your data go a long way to revealing what differences there are, however I would hope that one result of your report is that we all stop worrying so much about what IC we have on our MCSs and concentrate on more important issues. For me that means praying that Jan will find his way closer to Albuquerque so I can get a tune...one day.
|
As much as I wanted to find that after market IC's work better I would have to say thats not the case... At least from the tests I performed. I wish I had the knowledge, equipment and experience to do every test on these IC's possible. I'm not sure what unknowns there are pressure, pressure drop etc. that we weren't able to test that would lead to a truer understanding of these IC's.
IC's were made to cool, and I think the charts above show which ones do that.
All said and done however, the stock IC works just fine and money is better spent elsewhere. That would be my conclusion.
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
|

08-15-2008, 03:11 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luys
What do you mean here is the GRS is the best one is that right?
|
The GRS intercooler cooled the best , better than stock by almost 20 degrees.
I think that there is a pressure drop with the GRS that we weren't able to accurately record.
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
|

08-15-2008, 03:11 PM
|
|
6th Gear
|
|
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 3,950
Gallery
|
|
|
Great job, thanks for taking this on.
Glad you had fun with it too
|

08-15-2008, 03:12 PM
|
 |
Banned
|
|
Join Date: May 2006
Location: DC Metro
Posts: 7,681
Gallery
|
|
so, perhaps the GP core is the best of all worlds. it would be interesting to see how it fared given stock did so well, but I'm sure I'm the same as others and no way I'm letting it out of my sight, even for testing
thanks for the effort....it's rare on this forum to see someone put the time in.
|

08-15-2008, 03:14 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by PGT
so, perhaps the GP core is the best of all worlds. it would be interesting to see how it fared given stock did so well, but I'm sure I'm the same as others and no way I'm letting it out of my sight, even for testing
thanks for the effort....it's rare on this forum to see someone put the time in.
|
Thanks PGT, I tried to get gnatster to send me his but he said the same thing! No way was he letting it out of his site!
I would have loved to have had one to compare
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
|

08-15-2008, 03:16 PM
|
|
1st Gear
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Detroit
Posts: 22
Gallery
|
|
|
I'm with Mini Mac. I'm gonna buy a diverter with sprayer.
Thanks for testing these it helped alot
when ya gonna start testing diverters JK
|

08-15-2008, 03:20 PM
|
 |
5th Gear
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 715
Gallery
|
|
 Your testing was Old school. This in point means cool. the real world without all the hype. I wish you guys were closer to my neighborhood to play with a couple of projects I have.
I wish I could find a very early post but perhaps some can remember a few years ago Dr O and Don at MTH cam up with the same conclusion with IC's. I think DR O now uses a GP and Don recommends staying with the stock or GP IC for street use.
 Great posting guys. 
|

08-15-2008, 03:22 PM
|
 |
2nd Gear
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Utard
Posts: 127
Gallery
|
|
|
I have to say that it was a real eye opener on what exactly is happening in the airflow through the engine. And just how much the IC does. It was a lot of fun testing these with Intense! We will have to take on more fun projects like this. Just the time spent with another MINI owner makes it all worth while.
Thanks for all of the input and responses!
__________________
Roggen....Out!

'05 DS/W MCS Alta V2 17%, RMW Cam, JCW 380 Injectors, Brisk Racing Plugs, Voltage CAI, GRS InterCooler, Alta 22mm Sway, Eibach Springs, Alta Adjustable Rear Control Arms, M7 Strut Tower Brace, Invida Exhaust, Alta Stubby antenna, Ian Cull Auto Up, Ice Link, ASA EM9 17X7.
|

08-15-2008, 03:27 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by roggenmini
I have to say that it was a real eye opener on what exactly is happening in the airflow through the engine. And just how much the IC does. It was a lot of fun testing these with Intense! We will have to take on more fun projects like this. Just the time spent with another MINI owner makes it all worth while.
Thanks for all of the input and responses!
|
Your the man! Your wife is the man (JK) too for letting you spend so much or your time and weekends putting this together with me!
Roggen ran shotgun recording temps and data logging on his computer. Thanks Roggenmini! It was a team effort all the way and certainly wouldn't have been as much fun by myself man
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
|

08-15-2008, 03:30 PM
|
 |
My little dose of LITHIUM
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Posts: 2,433
Gallery
|
|
|
Given my years of looking at IAT data I'd like to refer to some of the data presented that I think are interesting.
1. The approaches are quite high. They are about 30-50F on the early runs and as high as 70-80F on the heat soaked runs. This puts low-load cruising approaches of 10F into perspective. No wonder the magic approach is under 20F -- it's hard to get that with spirited driving.
2. These guys did 3 hard runs and then let the car sit for 8 minutes. Then they did the "heat soak" run. Look at the differences in cooling of the ICs for these last runs--then think of how often you are running your car with heat soaked ICs. More often than not I'd guess...
__________________
dr. phil
|

08-15-2008, 03:31 PM
|
|
252whp 200trq RMW style
|
|
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Utah
Posts: 691
Gallery
|
|
|
Feel free, I would love the more technical guys to do some evaluations and give opinions
__________________
RMW Head - RMW Shorty Header - RMW Cam - RMW Quiet Catback - 440 injectors - Alta 17% - Alta 22mm Rear Sway - M7 V2 DFIC & Hood Scoop - M7 Coilovers - M7 AE Strut Bar - Voltage CAI - BRISK Racing Plugs - GP LSD - Eibach Control Arms - Custom Graphics - Orciari Cowl Scoops
|

08-15-2008, 03:42 PM
|
 |
5th Gear
|
|
Join Date: Oct 2006
Posts: 715
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intense
Feel free, I would love the more technical guys to do some evaluations and give opinions
|
 no  the kind of testing you two did is better
technical guys get caught up in theories and to much of controlled environments for there conclusions.
|

08-15-2008, 03:44 PM
|
|
1st Gear
|
|
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: England
Posts: 28
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Intense
There was some slight pressure drop but we really didn't have the proper equipment to test pressure.
|
Pressure drop on the GRS intercooler is 0.5psi, Randy Webb tested it for me, he said it was the lowest he's seen at the time!.
There is another new development GRS which has gone for test, but no results as yet
__________________
Graham
West Tuning 250bhp conversion,GRSmotorsport Charge Cooler,K/N panel filter, SPA gauges Milltek exhaust & manifold, JCW strut brace.
|

08-15-2008, 03:50 PM
|
 |
My little dose of LITHIUM
|
|
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Albuquerque New Mexico
Posts: 2,433
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitrominis
 no  the kind of testing you two did is better
technical guys get caught up in theories and to much of controlled environments for there conclusions.
|
You're a funny guy, Nitrominis! Where in any of my posts have I ever talked about theories? I've been one of the most supportive posters on NAM regarding any IAT related issue, and have contributed to them all.
...or maybe you're not referring to me when you mention technical guys? 
__________________
dr. phil
|

08-15-2008, 03:54 PM
|
 |
2nd Gear
|
|
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Utard
Posts: 127
Gallery
|
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grahamxx
There is another new development GRS which has gone for test, but no results as yet
|
Is this the Water to Air that they have on their site?
__________________
Roggen....Out!

'05 DS/W MCS Alta V2 17%, RMW Cam, JCW 380 Injectors, Brisk Racing Plugs, Voltage CAI, GRS InterCooler, Alta 22mm Sway, Eibach Springs, Alta Adjustable Rear Control Arms, M7 Strut Tower Brace, Invida Exhaust, Alta Stubby antenna, Ian Cull Auto Up, Ice Link, ASA EM9 17X7.
|
 |
|
| Thread Tools |
|
|
| Display Modes |
Linear Mode
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
|
|
 |