I need the help of the MINI community to develop a future product!

First, I want to let everyone know that continued MINI development is ongoing here, I just haven't been able to share much due to constraints. There are several new products around the corner for increases in power, as well as suspension components and brake products.

One of the newest projects I can talk about is a supercharger replacement using a turbo. There are other developments currently being researched in parallel with this project as well, but a turbo can be done relatively cheaply in comparison. That brings me to the reason I need your help.

How much of a market is there for a $2000 turbo kit done with some existing plumbing and a bolt on, versus a $4000 or so turbo kit done with new plumbing to a very nice front mount intercooler, a new throttle body position with a new manifold and a new high quality electric water pump? Which of these do you see as worth the research/development, tooling and production if there is only enough money for one?

I really do need honest opinions here - no hurt feelings. If you think I'm smoking something magical for discussing either, let me know. If you think there is a true place in the market for this, let me know which route makes more sense.

I will tell you that my wish would be to do the full nine on this kit. Offer a high quality turbo with a very trick front mount and new plumbing to support them, including a 3" cat-back, etc. Something that could be bolted on for $4000ish and hand you a reliable 250hp+. Again, other developments are being researched for higher numbers, but the costs are already established at higher numbers (but the gains are higher as well).

Let me know - and thanks for your help!!

Randy

 

I'm tired of promises of a turbo. When are we going to see them in production?

 

randy

you must look at this also at the future of a turbo engine.. u realize that mini maybe replacing the supercharged version with a new turbo version.. im sure many owners here would want a turbo now but there are those of us (like yours truly) who will probably be trading a supercharged early S for a new turbo model.. instead of wasting 2000 bucks on something that might cause alot of problems i rather pay for a factory turbo and crank up boost that way... cheaper..

sure there's nothing that says the aftermarket turbo (like the one you are developing) will be more powerful but u gotta remember that the replacement for the S' engine is also turbo.. you might just be wasting your time and effort by the time it hits the market!

i'd much rather see more cooling solutions development in the radiator and the aa intercooler department.. the rdr one looks promising but i doubt it'd be severely under the pricerange of the current selection

 

Anything that increases power is good.

Price is related to power output I guess. If I think about products that are already out there the out put is similar. 240hp can be achieved with head, cam, exhaust, header, pulley, ECU flash etc. I would think that even with a Turbo that you need to go the exhaust route with header to get rid of the extra heat. I hope I make some sense here. I would think people wanting more power and not having spent tons of money for bolt ons would go that route.

For me I am looking into a head right now to up my power. I just have to pick a supplier for it. I am also thinking of waiting for a while and put the money into the car account :D to see what is coming up. I wonder if anybody bolted on the SC replacement from M7 or Mini Mania yet. But that comes with a hefty bill at 5000$.

I also share Herman's thoughts above.

Alex

 

I think a $4000 kit for 250hp makes sense, but only for those (few?) MINI owners looking for major instant upgrades. I don't know how big a market there is for such a thing. I know I'm not in it, other than that I couldn't say!

Would the $2000 version be upgradable to eventually match the $4000 version? You might get people in the door with the $2k version with their eyes on ending up with the full deal as budget allows.

Devil's advocate: What would be the advantages of a $2k turbo swap (or even a $4k version) vs. keeping the supercharger and spending that money upgrading everything else?

(I haven't heard of the purported turbo replacement from the factory mentioned above, but it makes sense to me to wait for that to be finalized before going either direction.)

 

Randy,

I would rather spend my money ( and you know I am) on optimizing the existing platform. This means such things as relatively simple to a better air intake for the front mount air to air intercooler, a better intake path after the throttle body and a more efficient (powerful) supercharger.

There is so much that hasn't been well thought out for this platform yet, like BBKs that will fit most peoples wheels (15-17"), light-weight clutches and flywheels that don't rattle or feel like you are weight training, easier to use adjustable suspension systems, one can exhausts that actually fit and don't move two inches when hot....I think you get the idea.

I don't think you can take this car and make a turbo version any faster, only different. And to do it right, as you say, requires a substantial investment.

One reason I bought this car was because it is supercharged, not turboed. I have never liked the idea of turning a car into something it isn't.

Let BMW take the first crack at a turbo. Then we can all get together and decide how to optimize that platform.

Randy, I think it is more important to finish the development of some of the items you have mentioned to me first( that will have a broader market appeal hence more revenue) before you dive into something that has a very limited market and will compete with the next Mini.

I vote no on the Turbo

Bruce

 

I vote NO for any Turbo development also. If I have to pick among boosted applications, Supercharger wins my preference all day based on drivability alone. I would like to see an effective M62 application, or better yet, a whipple or twin-screw blower (something more efficient than Roots).

I'd like to see full-race suspension pieces (spherical bearings EVERYWHERE), front a-arms that aren't M7 expensive, optimised suspension mounting points (or adjustable!), chassis braces that have been FEA'd, and a close ratio gearbox gear set (not the stupid short-ratio box on the '05 MCS) that doesn't cost $5k like at Mania!

 

Better and cheaper parts are my pick also with some proper test data.

Alex

 

Is this a replacement turbo? In other words, does the supercharger come out and the turbo goes in? If so, I don't think I'm interested. The thought of a twin-charged, turbo on top of supercharged does intrigue me, however. Also, having broken the 50k mile mark, I wouldn't be interested in bolting that to this MINI. I'd be very interested in a twin charged MINI though for my next one - in about 18 months.

I'd say no to a turbo instead of the supercharger. I agree with most of the others. I love having a supercharger. Turbos are a dime a dozen.

 

out of pure preference of driveability/response time, im with rye, i would rather have an improved supercharger set-up. :smile: just my opinion.

 

I vote no for the turbo also. I personally love the supercharger much more than any turbocharger no matter how powerful it is. You will only be making a product for a small niche on a platform that is being phased out.

 

me too Randy.

Scott

 

My vote is also for a better supercharger. If I understand correctly from discussions on previous threads, an M62 conversion might not be the best way to go. I'd prefer an Autorotor or Whipple, for improved adiabatic efficiency at speed. I would also like to see an uprated air-to-air intercooler that is more affordable than those currently on the market.

 

Ryan is right besides, if we can't transfer more power to the ground,
what does it matter I think we should get the power we got to the ground better and then worry about adding more (above 250) horsepower.
MOTOR ON :smile:

 

I always thought superchargers were better than turbos. Maybe that's wrong, but it's what I thought. :smile:

I don't have $2k to spend, so both options are out for me. Improving the current engine setup makes more sense to me, along with better manufacturing with reduced prices. Folks around here are right. MINI parts are pricy compared to the aftermarket stuff you can get for most other cars.

 

In my opinion, improve the Super Charger. Might want to get with Larry from http://www.theoldone.com (ENDYN) he has build many Honda superchargers and is turning wicked times in Hondas. His 1.5l supercharged is turning 11s in the 1/4 and is daily driven car. HE use to build NASCAR’s in his early years and now owns his own shop in FT Worth TX. He has been featured in HOTROD mag and other mags. He did build some guys Cooper S a wile back and it was suppose to put "the power down".



With that said I use to have a wicked fast Honda (turbo) before the cooper s. All it was good for was some good highway driving because it would just blow the tires off. If we put a turbo kit on that bumped the HP over 250+ we would have to consider LSD, suspension, and many other things just to keep the drivability of the car. Unless you’re a person that goes all out this would be a route for you. But if you think you can slap a turbo kit on and crank the boost with out LSD and other things you might find your self in oncoming traffic like I use to in the Honda which was very scary sometimes.



I also think the fun in the curves won’t be there with a turbo do to the lag unless you run Ball Bearing which that was what I had on the civic and it spooled fast but still had some lag. The Supercharger pulls you through the corners smoothly in my opinion.

 

I'd like to see what Vortech would come up with. They make some sweet superchargers. :smile: Cost would probably be up there though.

 

Randy,

Forget the TURBO...I agree with eveyone else that the supercharger is the way to go and would be well worth the effort to improve it along with a better and more reasonably priced intercooler solution. How about a more reasonably priced big valve head too.

 

I tend to lean towards the "supercharger over turbo" side of the fence. I was not at all pleased with the lag in my turbo eclipse. Drivability and predictability will always be much smoother due to the more linear power delivery.

 

i agree with Ryephile, mtrsprt5, and kyriian. i like the supercharger, development is needed elsewhere for the cars yet. let BMW do there best for a turbo application first then i'll decide what i want to do, trade-in, upgrade the s/c, or twin-charge, or replace with a turbo.

 

Go the whole 9 yards with turbo development!!!! I would definetly look into purchasing it...

But, as the others have stated, I'd rather see a more powerful supercharger (twinscrew) and whatever it takes to handle that be developed.

 

I think the car can handle 250+hp just fine, at least up to 300hp. I drove a friends SRT-4 with @280hp at the wheels and it wasn't so out of control to handle.

 

That daily driver is a Civic with a 1.6l motor topped with an Eaton blower. The engine dynoed at 437 at the flywheel at 7800 rpm. The car gets 29.3 mpg combined, and is emission legal.

BMW is aware of Larry's work with MINIs also.

 

I'm probably not the norm, but, from an autocrossers standpoint, I would rather see an upgraded supercharger rather than a turbo swap. Thats just me though.

Otherwise, I would think, the $4K upgrade would be more appealing to the enthusiast since dropping 2K on a minimal upgrade is no small chuck of change, they might as well go ***** to the wall and drop 4K for the full package IMO.

Thats just my opinion, I could be way off though.

 

Randy
Continue your work with the present package. There is much more that can be done to the engine as far as head work and cam packages. A more refined supercharger would help along with more software packages for the ECU. I believe your knowledge can also be used to better set-up the cars suspension for those of us who come to you for Auto-x and road racing advice. Keep doing what your doing now and make the present version of this car the most it can be .
Thanks for all your help.
See ya in Lexington. :smile: