I beg to differ

 

What's your's Alain?

 

That's good that you beg to differ - we're all entitled to our opinions, which is why I said, "JMHO"... Care to enlighten us?

 

+1 I understand the greater surface area increases friction, reducing speed quicker. IMO (opinions make it ok) However, bbk advantages over a standard size setup with aggressive pads are truely minor. Also, bbk does increase rotational weight, and ultimatly requires larger wheels which also increase weight.

Recently (when?, alteast within the last year), I read a (tirerack?) comparison between stardard and bbk. The results were nearly identical; the bbk slowed quicker/consistantly more than the oem-padded (<--thats important here) counterpart, but the lap times were within tenths. Suggesting whoever came out 1st in turn one after the start, led to the flag.

Which leads me to suggest track time as a better bang. Besides, how else you gonna tune that suspension setup without it...

 

I'm assuming that seat time isn't the issue... That's the best place to start, you're right.

Most BBK's are considerably lighter than OEM rotors and calipers. This means less rotational weight. And, anything's lighter than the OEM wheels, even if you have to go bigger.

For autocross and street driving, I may agree with their assessment. However, for serious track work (open lapping, DE's and racing) the stock brake system even WITH aggressive pads will eventually fall off to the point of being useless - especially if the ambient temps are warm.

When you're racing, 0.3 seconds from your BBK can be the difference between 1st and everything else. I can almost guarantee that a 15% pulley, CAI and cat-back won't deliver 0.3 seconds a lap...

 

It all depends what your goal is.

If you want bling, go for the big brakes. If you can find a lighter setup than OE and money is no object, go for it. But bigger brakes won't make you stop in a shorter distance. This is what most people think they will get with bigger brakes.

They may prevent or retard brake fade in an environment where they are prone to overheat. But how many have experienced overheating ? Probably less than 5% of BBK buyers (prior to installing their BBK).

If your brakes do indeed overheat than find out why. Your first step is get better brake fluid and pads appropriate for the environment for which they will be used. Make sure your rotors receive adequate cooling.

If all else fails go for the BBK. But in my mind this is the worse investment you can make.

From our experience, there are not a lot of cars we can't outbrake on the track so if the OE brakes were inadequate, I can tell you that they would have been removed a long time ago.

Sorry for being <OT> so we should probably go back to the original topic: M7 coilovers.

 

The question tho... is .3 sec/lap, quick enough to make a pass.... imo, no. .3sec in a section, maybe.... but depends how wide I can make my car.

Whose?

Not my holies... (although the width limits the tire choice)






On topic...

Will the fronts sport the adjusting **** also? Can adjustments be done without dropping the rear shocks?

 

>Buttonwillow Raceway is approximately 3 miles (15,840 ft) in the longer configurations.
>My Mini took 2:20 to lap Buttonwillow on all-season tires (about 2:12 on high performance tires). We'll say it can run a 2:10 on race tires - I think this is conservative.
>The Mini is ~12 feet long.
>This means that the Mini goes 1 car length every .0985 seconds, and would travel about 36.5 feet in 0.3 seconds.

Did I do the math right?

That's almost 3 car-lengths advantage. Small times make a big difference! Also, you may not be able to pass someone with a 0.3 second advantage per lap (use a late brake or their mistake for that), but you can definitely keep them behind you after passing!

 

Wilwood, for one... Our Brake Man kit is also a lot lighter than OEM.

As far as stopping shorter - it's not about that... It's all about heat management. Trust me, we've tried all sorts of pads, fluids, solid caliper guides, brake ducts, etc - and all the track junkies around here have had their OEM brakes go off on them at some point.

Of course, it could have something to do with the 100+ degree ambient temps in the summer...

In any event, we use BBK's because they offer the same performance, more consistantly, and with more predictability. If you've ever been going down a straight at 90+, only to find that the brakes aren't working as you're expecting and there's a hard right hander approaching quickly - it's major, major pucker-time. Since we hang around the track/AX and not the car shows, the users of BBK's that we run into did the swap because they experienced said pucker-time. It ain't fun to find out your brakes are cooked mid-circuit.

I do think the MINIs brakes are pretty daggone good from the factory. And, they can be upgraded... But, they're still a weak point for serious track work. A proper brake duct kit, with a backing plate for the rotor, would go a long way to helping alleviate the issue...

 

I think we should have the moderator setup a discussion on brakes from part of this thread. Trust me when J Propane talks about brakes he knows what he is talking about. He didn't win the Canadian Championship in his MINI for no reason. I'm not trying to diss anyone else either. I've seen his car do a 3 hr. enduro and brakes were not an issue at Mosport. Air to the brakes is a huge factor which Alain and his crew work on constantly. Yes he has upgraded rotors but factory size and upgarded pads. But his brakes work.
Cooling and air flow are huge. Would he run different brakes if he could? Maybe, but I can't answer that for him.

Lets see a thread about brakes in the road racing section.

 

That'd be great - I'd love to learn about how they're getting air to the brakes...

 

Make me a quick list of posts (by post number) you would like split out into a separate thread for the brake discussion (and a proposed title) and I'll see to it that we get the thread split done.

 

This thead is the result of a thread split off of the M7 Coilover thread.

 

Thanks Dave
I hope Alain, J Propane will see this thread split. I know he is using the JCW UK. air ducts on his car from what I saw at Mosport. I know his brake sponsor makes his pads with compounds they need for each track also. Hopefully he'll show us some pic's and giveaway some of his secrets. Plus knowing how to drive correctly and how to use your brakes helps also.

And for what it's worth. I had a BBK on my previous car and used up my standard brakes on my GP at the Glen this fall. I was surprised how they worked. Yes different pads and slotted rotors would have helped. Txwerks is working on a new rotor for the GP from what I remember.

 

Three car lengths/lap. If the track has three sections and the faster car is .1 sec faster in each, he'll only gain 12ft per section (math?). Not enough to get by, yet.... (side by side if leader was being literally pushed, which would open the door for the next section). 12ft is a lot of ground when occupied by another car. In one corner with the slower car in front on the race line, the faster car may need more than three lengths to make up the difference. If Buttonwillow has three sections, there could be 7 corners in each depending on layout. (would that be 5ft per corner...?) One thing to be fast. Totally another to be fast and pass.

 

I prefer to explain it in terms of "duty cycle".

While you can massag a stock sytem with enhancements (pads, hoses, fluid) and push the operational level a bit higher, you can often achieve the same net ressult (that limit due to tire etc) with a much lower duty cycle using the BBK. And often pick up benefits of weight loss and more tuneable pad compounds along the way.

More often than not folks choose the enhancement route and then because they install the higher Cf pad for their track day as well as more motor enhancements for speed they simply elevate the problem to the next level. If you generate more heat and attempt to brake later, even with cooling ducts (often more difficult and costly as one thinks) you are still dealt the same rotor mass and thermal capacity.

Most BBKs are also of a directional rotor design thus aiding in cooling. No stock parts are. Some BBKs also have thicker pads for not only longer life but better insulating properties to the caliper. Some BBKs have stainless steel pistons for added heat rejection. The caliper of all (that I know) BBKs is Aluminum which again offers greater convection over iron which tends to trap heat.

Will it mak you stop better? Maybe, maybe not. Will it do it all day long without overheating? Certainly. Lap times and distances aside, just stay stuck to the bumper of the stock brake car for a few laps and note his braking points begin to back up....then feel free to go in deeper and out brake him.

 

Thanks Todd
Can you explain some of the differences in pads and heat ranges with different pad compounds without taking up to much of your time. I think it might help those who may be thinking of making changes. Is this info on your website?

Thanks

 

anyone who has gone in excess of 160mph and needed to make a panic stop knows how dangerous oem brakes are...they just will NOT stop the car fast enough, the rotors will overheat in the first 100 feet and the pads will smoke and smolder, but the car will not stop when you need it to stop...

trust me on that one, i've eaten plenty aligator meat due to OEM brakes.
i even got a nice wallet with tire marks to prove it, LOL

 

 

While I do not do OEM replacements this bit of info might be worth looking at.
http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/pads.html
Learning of the Cf of a stock replacement pad however seems a mystery..

 

Thanks for the info Todd.

 

I am not sure where the idea that a BBK won't decrease the stopping distance came from. But with a larger contact patch (pad size) than stock you have the same benenfit as going to a larger tire.......more grip. As was stated before, the braking distance from 60-0mph is going to be shorter with a BBK because the pad has more surface area with which to grip the rotor and dissipate heat.

 

Its the weakest link analysis. If stock brakes will cause ABS to kick in, then the weak link is the grip of the tires. Adding more brake capability will not stop the car any quicker. Stock brakes are more than capable of engaging ABS when cold. BBK will have an advantage at the end of the track session when the brakes are at their hottest.

The disadvantage of a BBK is the added rotating mass. Slower acceleration and more inertia to overcome when turning. Whether its enough to notice is more math than I want to deal with.

Alan

 

Just remember most BBK kits are 4lbs and up less weight per side.

 

1st post...

The trick is to then use a BBK with the same or lower total weight then the stock setup to balance this issue.

Is there a BBK that fits that requirement?

Also a BBK that is heavier then stock increases the unsprung weight, adding to the inherent complexities of the math.