I frequently have my wheel lugs come loose on my Kosei K1s. It's scary. I always torque my lugs to 90 ft/lbs., yet they still have a frightening habit of coming loose--most notably on the front left wheel. Yes, they do get rotated, so it's not the same wheel every time. This happens most frequently at the track, but it can happen in the city as well. I had my front left almost come off at Blackhawk, but was able to pit in before it happened (I thought it was suspension, but thought to check the lugs first.)

This has happened consistently for the 10 months that I've been running these wheels, and it has never happened on my R-90s (used for a year and then over this winter). Phil Wicks recommended that I use Loctite, but that seems like serious overkill, and not something that is very utilitarian with frequent tire rotation and/or brake work.

Am I the only one that this happens to? Any suggestions?

 

first thing that comes to mind: are you using the correct seat wheel bolts?

Wonder what Alex has to say.....?

 

I agree, something sounds wrong.

Where did you get the lug nuts from? Came with the Koseis?
What about the stock lug nuts- can those be used? Will they get loose too?

Mine never get loose. I use 88 ft/lbs torque.

I'd be concerned about the fit not being right.

 

When I put my Rotas on, I used the "tuner" lugs that came with the new wheels.I had a lot of problems with them working loose, particularly on left front. The beveled edge on the tuner lugs was pretty short, and I think there was inadequate contact area.

My fix: I reverted to the black lugs that came with the car -- tapered area is wider. Since then -- no problems. I torque to ~80 ft-lbs.

Tom

 

We have swapped all of our cars to studs in place of lug bolts. We find that with the frequency of tire removal at the track and messing with different tire and wheel combinations the studs are the safer way to go. Make for a lot faster wheel change as well Just another idea for you , havea great 4th.

Randy
Team M7

www.m7tuning.com

 

After I swap or rotate my wheels, I retorque after driving maybe 10-15miles.

But after that, it does not come loose at all. Im also using about 80ft/lbs
torque on my lugs. Im also using the black factory lugs on my wheels (R90,
SSR Comps). but the freebie lugs that came with the tirerack's wheelset
works just fine.

I too think its your lugs.... there are many people using K1's in auto-x so
i think it's something real simple. :smile:

 

The lugs are from Tire Rack and came with the wheels. I haven't tried using the stock lugs with the Koseis. Studs sound like a great idea (and an upgrade!). Anyone see any reason NOT to switch to studs?

 

>Anyone see any reason NOT to switch to studs?


extra cost for something you shouldn't need? but since you sound to
be a weekend racer swapping wheels often, studs might make it easier for you.

I really never felt that the bolts were THAT much harder to use than studs...
plus if you ever need to add spacers, its so much easier.

 

Ease of wheel swapping an obvious advantage to studs although I really haven't found the bolts too much trouble. But, how are studs safer? Just haven't come across that bit of info yet.Thanks.

 

are your wheels painted or powdercoated? if so, remove the paint from the holes where the lugs contact the wheel. sandpaper works fine, but a dremel tool or similar will make it quicker. also make sure if you're using some kind of antiseize that it's not on the seating surface of the lugs.

i've seen the paint "issue" numerous times on track cars. removing the paint always eliminates the problem

good luck
fabian

 

A good quality stud such as ARP will take the repeated stretching that will happen each time you torque them. It is not that the studs are harder they are better suited to the task at hand than stock bolts. It is also a lot easier to change wheels when you use studs.

Randy
Team M7

www.m7tuning.com

 

Where can I get the stud kits? I've looked around (a bit, not terribly much) and haven't found them yet.

 

You get a more accurate torque reading with studs than bolts.
When you torque the bolt you also twist it along its length to the point that the threads "grab". This twist gives you an "inaccurate" torque reading. I found that my lug bolts just quit after numerous uses. I replaced them all, and now I am going to lug nuts.

After informally timing tire swaps, with an impact gun the longest task is aligning the wheel to the holes and trying to get the first bolt in. With the lug nuts, I am expecting that removing the nuts, placing the tire and attaching the nuts will make each task roughly the same length and remove the precision activity of aligning the wheel to bolt holes. So now there is 1 precision activity, jacking the car, and a wheel swap should be able to be completed in 5-7 minutes per side. With 2 people, the entire car could be done in 5 minutes.

 

Here is a link to one source of studs as well as some info as why studs are perfered over bolts.Ubercooper thanks for a more detailed explanation why studs are safer as well.
Randy
Team M7
www.m7tuning.com

http://www.promini.com/product-exec/...category_id/38

 

Does anyone know if it's $3.95 PER STUD? That's like $64 for the whole car: more than I was expecting, and that'ss not even including the nuts at $4.95 each (another $80!).

Can that be right?

 

I thought that was a pretty reasonable price... and yes, that is how much
it would cost if you do go that route. I wonder how well that threadlock paste
work though.... would kind of suck if the stud came loose with the nut.

 

$150 for studs and nuts, plus a couple of spares.

Sounds like a deal to me, especially if yours are coming loose all the time.

 

I just paid 60.00 for 30 studs and nuts for another car........(4X 5 studs plus 2 spare sets)

 

You will need bandages after you make that purchase.
But seriously if you do a search there are better prices out there.
Maybe here,
http://www.cbperformance.com/category.asp?categoryid=17

Or this site does retail, http://www.prestigewheel.com/mainStuds.asp

 

Part of the problem with bolts is that they also stretch when they are torqued. This means that subsequent torque applications must be increased. This is the main reason that head bolts can only be used twice before discarding. Each subsequent torque-down of the bolts increases the length of the bolt. Head bolts must be torqued an extra 10% when the head is removed and replaced, and if removed a second time, new bolts should always be used. The same principle applies to wheel bolts, only not to the same extreme, because they are thicker; but in any case, they should be torqued down an extra 2 lbs with each tire change, and discarded after 5 or 6 changes. Wheel studs last longer because the tension is applied along a shorter percentage of the length.
Now to the critical part: the wheel studs I saw in one link(promini site-the other 2 sites provided had no grade information I could see) were a grade 8.8, typically OE bolts/studs are a grade 10.9. The studs are 20% weaker in tension than you would probably like, I doubt they will need changing as often as the OE bolts, but a tensile reduction of 20% concerns me.

 

>discarded after 5 or 6 changes.

wow, Im over due for a new set of lug bolts! On a hubcentric wheel
used on the streets, I think you can get a lot more than just 5-6 applications.

 

I've Centerline RPM rims using stock lug nuts & locks which i've had for year.

Do monthly track days & autocross- check lugs routinely & haven't had any issues with lugs coming loose till yesterday. Very slight shimmy on way home-figured i needed tires balanced.

This morning it didn't feel right at all- thought tire was flat, perhaps suspension issue. Pulled over everything looked ok- checked lugs & all 4 lugs on both front wheels were seriously loose- few on back slightly loose-
I recently switched from plastic centering hubs to metal as the plastic were bonded to the hub and wouldn't come off. I did get correct size and ensured they fit hub correctly as well as wheel 72.something for wheel X 56.1 hub
WOW definitely scary thinking if my 17 yr old son was driving and didn't notice car this. Guess i'll switch to studs to be safe.
Its funny how i seem to read about things on NAM then they happen to me- its happened too often.

 

Dont mean to resurrect an old thread but I did a search and found this.

I have the K-1's as well and Torqued them twice and they came loose at an open track day today. Pretty scary to have a wheel start clunking at 100 MPH.

I am going to try to remove the paint in the seats first, but, I am considering the studs and lug nuts. I personally hate the screw type lugs and would love to get rid of them.

Thanks for the tips.

 

Couple of thouts. Some covered.

Do studs if you can, many benefits make it worth while.

Reasons for your problem?

1. LF is the logical one to 'throw the nut' under acceleration. The twist is all wrong. Why many race cars (center locks) are LH thread on the left side of the car- rotation tightens them.

2. PC'd rims can lead to this until you grind the pc off or tighten them over and over.

3. Nut taper has to match the wheel seat.

4. Loss of hub centric support. If the wheel has a hub spacer be sure it is in place and actually fits! I've seen ones supplied that were not correct. The shifting wheel can move on the bolts.

 

Someone please explain how this can be true...

My thinking tells me that the length of bolt/stud that is subjected to stretch is about the same. If anything, the studs have a greater stretched area because the entire area inside the lugnut is under force as well.

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Some wheels seem to be more problematic than others. Removing the paint/powdercoat where the lug nuts/bolts seat can help.