No tire rotation?
#1
No tire rotation?
I have had my Coupe for nearly 18 months now and have put nearly 40K miles on it. I've replaced the front brakes already(!) and the last time I took the car in for service (at the dealer, my last complimentary service), I was told my front tires were down toe 3/16.
Later, I compared the front tire wear to the rear tire wear and there was a significant difference. I took out the maintenance paperwork and found no notice of tire rotation when it was serviced. So I sent a note to the dealer asking why. This is the response I received:
"MINI does not include nor recommend tire rotations. MINI’s have an aggressive alignment set up which causes the tires to wear a certain way depending on what position they are mounted in. Moving those tires to a different location can than drastically change the handling characteristics of the car. One of the thing MINI’s are famous for is their handling, so MINI does not want anything to jeopardize this attribute. "
Huh? That sounds an awful lot lot what I was told when I needed front brake pads replaced so early (<39K miles), that they are "performance" pads and, IIRC softer than typical.
Am I being fed a steaming pile here, or is the dealer on to something?
Understand that I'm not out for super performance. I think my MINI performs quite nicely, even as a non-S, and I love to drive it. IN looking for new tires, my primary characteristics are low roiling resistance and long treadlife (I know some of you who are performance-oriented are about to have a heart attack.)
I'm thinking, too that I really only need to replace 2 tires, not all 4, as there's plenty of tread left on the rear tires. With the drivetrain on the front, am I better off putting the new ones on the front? (I live in California's Bay Area, which is largely dry (although rainy season is approaching) with no snow in winter and only rarely will I be driving in winter conditions).
Looking at the TireRack site, I'm leaning toward the Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max ($102 each) or the Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 $79 each) as my primary options. And thoughts on either of these?
It's interesting that I talked new tires with my mechanic a few months back nad he said he couldn't beat TireRack's prices, but it'd be OK to order from TireRack and have them sent to him and they'd do the install and related work.)
Later, I compared the front tire wear to the rear tire wear and there was a significant difference. I took out the maintenance paperwork and found no notice of tire rotation when it was serviced. So I sent a note to the dealer asking why. This is the response I received:
"MINI does not include nor recommend tire rotations. MINI’s have an aggressive alignment set up which causes the tires to wear a certain way depending on what position they are mounted in. Moving those tires to a different location can than drastically change the handling characteristics of the car. One of the thing MINI’s are famous for is their handling, so MINI does not want anything to jeopardize this attribute. "
Huh? That sounds an awful lot lot what I was told when I needed front brake pads replaced so early (<39K miles), that they are "performance" pads and, IIRC softer than typical.
Am I being fed a steaming pile here, or is the dealer on to something?
Understand that I'm not out for super performance. I think my MINI performs quite nicely, even as a non-S, and I love to drive it. IN looking for new tires, my primary characteristics are low roiling resistance and long treadlife (I know some of you who are performance-oriented are about to have a heart attack.)
I'm thinking, too that I really only need to replace 2 tires, not all 4, as there's plenty of tread left on the rear tires. With the drivetrain on the front, am I better off putting the new ones on the front? (I live in California's Bay Area, which is largely dry (although rainy season is approaching) with no snow in winter and only rarely will I be driving in winter conditions).
Looking at the TireRack site, I'm leaning toward the Goodyear Assurance Fuel Max ($102 each) or the Bridgestone Ecopia EP422 $79 each) as my primary options. And thoughts on either of these?
It's interesting that I talked new tires with my mechanic a few months back nad he said he couldn't beat TireRack's prices, but it'd be OK to order from TireRack and have them sent to him and they'd do the install and related work.)
#2
You bring up some interesting points.
First, your dealer is giving you the standard Mini party line on tire rotations - not recommended. Personally, I believe it has more to do with minimizing servicing costs during the "free maintenance" period than preserving handling. If anything, cars with odd suspension setups which tend to wear tires unevenly benefit MORE from rotation. I don't see a technical justification to think that handling is improved by leaving a tire in a single position as it gets more and more unevenly worn. This doesn't make sense to me.
If you do rotate, I'd use the generally-accepted patterns: front-to-back/back-to-front on the same side if the tires are directional (rotate only in one direction with an directional arrow on the sidewall), and front-to-back on the same side, and crossing sides back-to-front if the tires are asymmetric (with sidewall marked inside/outside).
If you don't rotate, it is a viable strategy to replace tires in pairs as on a FWD car, the front tires will often wear at about 2X the rate of the rears. I would try and buy very similar tires if you're replacing only the fronts. That's the big advantage of rotation.... all four tires tend to wear more/less evenly so when you replace, you replace them all at once.
Brake life is highly variable based on terrain and driving habits, but 40K is not unusual. My car tends to wear the rears slightly before the fronts which is also unusual, so don't always assume the fronts are going first.
No opinions on tire choice. Last time I replaced, I went with Bridgestone RE760s as the best compromise I could find on price, noise, comfort, and tread life. But there are tons of good choices and it sounds like you're mainly looking at LRR tires.
- Mark
First, your dealer is giving you the standard Mini party line on tire rotations - not recommended. Personally, I believe it has more to do with minimizing servicing costs during the "free maintenance" period than preserving handling. If anything, cars with odd suspension setups which tend to wear tires unevenly benefit MORE from rotation. I don't see a technical justification to think that handling is improved by leaving a tire in a single position as it gets more and more unevenly worn. This doesn't make sense to me.
If you do rotate, I'd use the generally-accepted patterns: front-to-back/back-to-front on the same side if the tires are directional (rotate only in one direction with an directional arrow on the sidewall), and front-to-back on the same side, and crossing sides back-to-front if the tires are asymmetric (with sidewall marked inside/outside).
If you don't rotate, it is a viable strategy to replace tires in pairs as on a FWD car, the front tires will often wear at about 2X the rate of the rears. I would try and buy very similar tires if you're replacing only the fronts. That's the big advantage of rotation.... all four tires tend to wear more/less evenly so when you replace, you replace them all at once.
Brake life is highly variable based on terrain and driving habits, but 40K is not unusual. My car tends to wear the rears slightly before the fronts which is also unusual, so don't always assume the fronts are going first.
No opinions on tire choice. Last time I replaced, I went with Bridgestone RE760s as the best compromise I could find on price, noise, comfort, and tread life. But there are tons of good choices and it sounds like you're mainly looking at LRR tires.
- Mark
Last edited by markjenn; 11-01-2013 at 11:06 AM.
#3
I just rotated my tires front to rear on same side and couldnt tell much difference in handling. Maybe during aggressive driving there would be a noticable differnce especiatly if the wear on the tires are drastically different, but I cant tell much difference on the streets. I say go for it and rotate....
#4
We had Ecopias on our Toyota Prius. Good for mpg. Merely adequate at everything else.
I'd sooner have the Michelin A/S 3 ($92) which is good at everything or the Sumitomo HTR A/S PO1 ($58 for 195/60-15) which is a profound bargain.
BMW has a long history of not recommending tire rotation including before they offered free maintenance. However, very few drivers will notice any difference in handling if the tires are rotated on a regular basis.
I'd sooner have the Michelin A/S 3 ($92) which is good at everything or the Sumitomo HTR A/S PO1 ($58 for 195/60-15) which is a profound bargain.
BMW has a long history of not recommending tire rotation including before they offered free maintenance. However, very few drivers will notice any difference in handling if the tires are rotated on a regular basis.
#5
This is an interesting subject from an international perspective. Tire rotation seems to be a purely North American thing - it just isn't done in Yurp, where I think all manufacturers say they don't recommend it.
The odd handling after rotation message from Mini USA is not what we are usually told, which is that moving a tire to a new position causes accelerated wear as the tire wears to match its new loading situation. Rotation will give even wear but the mesage we get is that it will also give you more wear than not rotating.
I suspect it's one of those things where you can only know if it's a good or bad idea if your mind was made up before you saw any evidence. Whatever your granddad did is the right thing, eh?
The odd handling after rotation message from Mini USA is not what we are usually told, which is that moving a tire to a new position causes accelerated wear as the tire wears to match its new loading situation. Rotation will give even wear but the mesage we get is that it will also give you more wear than not rotating.
I suspect it's one of those things where you can only know if it's a good or bad idea if your mind was made up before you saw any evidence. Whatever your granddad did is the right thing, eh?
#6
agree that letting them wear down unevenly in the name of "performance" is steaming pile of...
if you try something new every time you buy tires then you should rotate and replace as a set.
If you like your tires and will just replace with the same brand, AND if you don't have uneven wear, then treating them as separate sets (front and back) has the advantage of breaking up the cost so it's not $500-800 at a time, if this matters to you. When I was stuck on kumhos when my car was new, that's what I did, and I found that the fronts wore almost 3x as fast as the rears.
if you try something new every time you buy tires then you should rotate and replace as a set.
If you like your tires and will just replace with the same brand, AND if you don't have uneven wear, then treating them as separate sets (front and back) has the advantage of breaking up the cost so it's not $500-800 at a time, if this matters to you. When I was stuck on kumhos when my car was new, that's what I did, and I found that the fronts wore almost 3x as fast as the rears.
#7
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#9
MINI does not include rotations with their free maintenance because they do not want to pay for it. They'd rather you wear out a set of front tires early & sell you a set of new expensive tires.
It has been my experience that rotating tires does make them live longer. Rear tires that are never rotated will develop flat spots get quite noisy & the fronts will wear prematurely. I rotate mine every 7,000 miles or so.
It has been my experience that rotating tires does make them live longer. Rear tires that are never rotated will develop flat spots get quite noisy & the fronts will wear prematurely. I rotate mine every 7,000 miles or so.
#10
I've never rotated my tires on any of my cars. Yes the fronts on the front wheel cars wear much faster but it's about a 2:1 to 3:1 ratio. For example on my Honda MINIvan the fronts lasted about 40000 miles and the backs need replacing soon at +70000. I've never had problems with ride quality and I'm satisfied with the mileage I'm getting.
So in short, I replace in pairs, it's what works for me and is easy on the budget.
From a handling performance perspective, the dealer might have a point but it's probably negligible.
So in short, I replace in pairs, it's what works for me and is easy on the budget.
From a handling performance perspective, the dealer might have a point but it's probably negligible.
Last edited by cerenkov; 11-02-2013 at 12:45 PM.
#13
Just on the part where u asked whether to install new on front or rear and IMO, it's better if u put the new pair on the rears, especially if u drive more aggressively. Since rainy season is coming up, u don't want the rear sliding out because of the more slick rear tires as the current set is more worn than the new pair. This is directly dependent on your driving style.
If u drive more conservatively all the time, then placement is not that huge of a concern.
If u drive more conservatively all the time, then placement is not that huge of a concern.
#14
Just on the part where u asked whether to install new on front or rear and IMO, it's better if u put the new pair on the rears, especially if u drive more aggressively. Since rainy season is coming up, u don't want the rear sliding out because of the more slick rear tires as the current set is more worn than the new pair. This is directly dependent on your driving style. If u drive more conservatively all the time, then placement is not that huge of a concern.
#15
Interesting post. I looked it up when I discovered that my initial service did not rotate the tires. I did it myself, then queried MINI about it and got the same answer. If they wear out in the first 3 years, won't MINI replace them?!!
I will let them wear out as a set, then replace them all with something quieter than the Conti's. If I was just to replace a pair, I'd put the new ones on the back. Otherwise you'd end up with really OLD tires on the back eventually. They might go bad due to age before they wear out, depending on how much the car is driven.
I will let them wear out as a set, then replace them all with something quieter than the Conti's. If I was just to replace a pair, I'd put the new ones on the back. Otherwise you'd end up with really OLD tires on the back eventually. They might go bad due to age before they wear out, depending on how much the car is driven.
#16
#17
If you like your tires and will just replace with the same brand, AND if you don't have uneven wear, then treating them as separate sets (front and back) has the advantage of breaking up the cost so it's not $500-800 at a time, if this matters to you.
You get quiet, even wear that will remain for the tires' life. Rotate more often when tires are brand new, this is when they are the most vulnerable.
#19
The admonishment to always replace the rear tires first is a good one, but it should be used with some judgment - it assumes that the new tires are always going to have better traction than worn ones and that more understeer is always a better thing than less. In actuality, on dry pavement, a somewhat worn tire may actually have better traction than a new one, especially if you're not mixing tires of the exact same brand/type. And some cars have so much understeer, a reduction might actually improve handling. That being said, for things like icy conditions or aquaplaning, you do prefer the front to lose traction before the rear.
As a general rule, it makes sense, but there are situations where a knowledgeable owner might make an exception. It's a little like BMW's admonishment to never rotate tires - it might have some technical justification, but it is not something that is hard/fast. It represents BMW's priorities, not necessarily the owner's. And, my cynical mind will still maintain that it has something to do with reducing costs during the "free maintenance" period.
- Mark
As a general rule, it makes sense, but there are situations where a knowledgeable owner might make an exception. It's a little like BMW's admonishment to never rotate tires - it might have some technical justification, but it is not something that is hard/fast. It represents BMW's priorities, not necessarily the owner's. And, my cynical mind will still maintain that it has something to do with reducing costs during the "free maintenance" period.
- Mark
Last edited by markjenn; 11-08-2013 at 11:31 PM.
#20
#21
Dunlop Tires
I just picked up our MINI this week and it came with Dunlop SP Sport 01 tires. I checked the tire mfg site to see their recommendation for maintenance - here's what they say:
"Lack of rotation, worn suspension parts, underinflation/overinflation, wheel imbalance and misalignment can cause vibration or irregular tire wear. Rotate your tires according to your vehicle manufacturer's recommendations or at maximum intervals of 6,000 miles/10,000 km."
They also confirmed that when installing two new tires the deepest tread should be in the rear.
So, we'll be rotating.
"Lack of rotation, worn suspension parts, underinflation/overinflation, wheel imbalance and misalignment can cause vibration or irregular tire wear. Rotate your tires according to your vehicle manufacturer's recommendations or at maximum intervals of 6,000 miles/10,000 km."
They also confirmed that when installing two new tires the deepest tread should be in the rear.
So, we'll be rotating.
#22
Wait... Where is the logic? OK, don't rotate.. the fronts will wear out quicker than the backs, so now you need to replace the front tires. BUT, the deeper tread needs to go on the back. So, move the backs to the fronts, put the new tires on the rear. I think they've now been rotated.. my head hurts.
#23
Wait... Where is the logic? OK, don't rotate.. the fronts will wear out quicker than the backs, so now you need to replace the front tires. BUT, the deeper tread needs to go on the back. So, move the backs to the fronts, put the new tires on the rear. I think they've now been rotated.. my head hurts.
Put the tires with the best tread on the rear axle. This gives you the most resistance to hydroplaning in the event of wet roads and prevents risk of oversteering which leads to loss of control of the car.
The practical issue is-
If you do not rotate your tires on a front wheel drive car, you may wear out the fronts faster than the rears, as a result you may have to replace them.
Period. If you don't want to replace just two tires (which is not bad) then rotate your tires even if the car company doesn't recommend it.
Tire rotation assumes you have tires that allow you to rotate. Directional tires will need to stay on the same side of the car, rotate only front to back.
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