Hi all,

I got a set of ROTA Torques installed on friday 17 inch rims with the lug size bored from 12 to 14mm and no hubcentric ring. So the tires were properly torqued. Next day I go to the track and torque again befoe heading out. On the second session a serious vibration happened and I pulled over. Turns out that 3 bolts that come off completely. The wheel was being held in by one bolt. When I checked the other side, it was loose too but the bolts had not come off yet.

Now my question is has anyone seen or heard of this? What might you guys think it is?Thanks!

 

Coupla things probably contributed to the issue.

No hubcentric rings meaning there was a possibility the wheel was not centered well on the hub.

Wrong torque settings. you don't say if the MINI is an R56 or not, I'm going to assume yes being you bored the wheel for a 14mm lug, unless it's a very late R53. What did you torque too?

Torque wrench may be off by quite a bit.

Lugs may not be the right seat for the wheel.

 

If the wheel has a painted surface in the lug seat area, that's a common problem point. The paint flakes off, which loosens the lugs. Either be vigilant on checking them, or sand / file the paint out of the lug seats.

Rotas have cheap paint (hey, they're cheap wheels - and I own a set of them), so this could be part of the problem.

 

That happened to me with my new SSRs. Luckily I came in before the first bolt actually fell out (it was on the point of falling out). After that I became very zelous about torquing the wheels before each session.

The paint in the lug holes does seem to be the problem its just bare metal now, so hopefully this won't be such a problem in future.

 

which wheels should I get to ensure no problems like these?

 

I have used a set of OZ Ultraleggera wheels and another set of Team Dynamics Racing Pro Race 1.2 wheels on the race track, no loose lug nut problems with either set. I would recommend both brands!

 

I've had wheels loosen up autoxing, both with the stock lug bolts, and with lug nuts, before I had a torque wrench, and since I finally began torquing to spec... I've been much more vigilante about it on-track and no issues so far... Have only run my el-cheapo Konigs on-track.

All the possibilities I can think of have been mentioned - the hubcentric thing being the biggest one. I didn't know paint on the hub surface of the wheel could be an issue though. +1 thing learned today.

Glad you still had one on!

Are you using lug bolts or nuts? Title and post are contradictory. How are the threads on whatever you're using? Could explain loosening up.

 

funny that this thread is on top now as this happened to me on Saturday.
I painted my OZ wheels a week ago and was pretty sure that I did tighten the lugnuts as it have never forgotten to do so before. But this weekend i'm on a highway doing about 70mph and there is a strange vibration. I'm thinking "oh god, new tires and I have a flat"?? So I pull over but there is no flat, check the tires for some nails in the thread and see nothing. I continued driving but the vibration gotten worse. I pull over again, check the tire pressure just to be sure in all 4 tires and then out of the blue I touch the lugnut and OMG it's not tighten, in fact 3 out of 4 are lose. turned out that actually 3 wheels had lose lugnuts. I tightened them on the spot and continued home but was pretty sure that I must've forgoten to do so when I was putting the wheels on after painting.

Now i'm suspecting that i didn't really forget to tighten them but somehow the wheel paint contributed.

 

If the paint is not flaking off, that's not part of the problem. On some wheels, the paint flakes off, and that effectively loosens the lug nuts. I may be making this sound more important than it is.

Here's a crappy iPhone picture of the lug seats on my Rota Slipstreams (track wheels);


They used to be white like the rest of the wheel. What can happen is you tighten the lugs down against the paint. The paint is some non-zero thickness. When the paint flakes off, that thickness is now lost, and the lugs are not snug up against the now bare metal.

It's really not a big deal, as you should re-check your lug nuts after driving a little when wheels are installed, or the shop that does the installation should offer that service for you.

 

Everybody (except gnatster.. "Lugs may not be the right seat for the wheel") seems to have missed this:
If the lug holes on your rims were actually drilled/bored out an extra 2mm, that's a significant amount of the friction/mating surface between the rim and the lug bolt that's been removed. I'd suspect that the cause of your problem is a lack of friction, not improper torque. And as suggested, the mating angles of the rim and the bolts may not be correct.

 

I don't run hubcentric rings anymore since I switched over to studs, but it is imperative that you torque down your wheels properly, in a star pattern, at two or three stages. Get a torque wrench, set the torque to whatever application you are running (I set my to 95ft/lbs since I'm running a stud conversion but for you set it whatever the manual/dealer states...I believe the R56 is 105ft/lbs). I tighten down the lugs in a star pattern down to 50ft/lbs and then set it for 95ft/lbs and tighten them down to that torque spec. Never had a lugnut come off using this method, regardless of hubcentric rings or not. Make sure to check the lugs after every session at the track. When the wheels get hot from lapping, the lugs sometimes can get a bit loose.

 

The same thing happened to me a few weeks ago. All 16 lugs had come loose after I properly tightened them. There was a slight shimmy in the steering wheel that told me something was wrong. Now after reading this post I've come to the conclusion that painting the hubs on my rotors after resurfacing them ( during a recent break job ) was the reason that they became loose. Maybe painting them was not such a good idea.

 

wow, what a coincidence. i just ran 20-30 kms on my newly painted wheels to break in my new wilwood BBK. i oughta check the lugs before i go out again

 

is that taken into account by many was mentioned by Gnatster. That is the lug mate to the wheel. Some want a flat countersink like bevel to the lug nut, and some want a ball like shape. Most aftermarket wheels like the countersink shape, and I think the Mini stock lugnuts are the ball. This is from memory, so I may be wrong there. In any event, make sure to confirm what lug type is best for the wheel you're running. Then make sure you have good lug nuts/bolts (depending on if you're running studs) to make sure you're safe. FWIW, there are some crap bolts out there for sure....

I don't think the boring is a problem myself.

And like many said, careful torquing with a good wrench will really make us all safer.

Every time I've heard of this on the track, it's come down to not torquing in stages and to too low a final value. what happens is that there is a bit of an off center mount because of the weight and torquing in one step, and this makes a vibrational force (that you may not even feel) that works the stuff loose as you drive at speed. By the time you feel the vibration, stuff is pretty loose, as many have commented. Don't feel bad, some very experience track rats have had this happen to them.

Matt

 

Huh? Paint on the rotor hub should have nothing to do with lug nut tightness.

Always re-torque lug nuts after about 100 miles, especially with aftermarket wheels. Always check torque before going on a track.

MINI lug bolts are standard 60-degree conical seat design, not ball seats.

emans, it seems very scary that you torqued the fasteners down just before driving, and then they fell off within minutes after that. I'd suspect you have a mismatch between the fastener seat type and the wheel seat type. Or...maybe the wrong thread pitch?

--Dan
Mach V

 

I mentioned the paint on the rotors because I've had my wheels off and on a number of times for cleaning ( I know it’s kind of **** but I like the back side of the rims clean as well ) and applying tire shine and I have never had the lug nuts come loose. However within days of painting the hubs on the rotors using high temp engine paint ( primer and a couple of coats of gloss black ) all the lugs were loose. The rims seemed to have displaced some of the paint as there was a slight ridge of paint around the rim where it mated to the hub. I think that as the paint was pushed out it allowed the lug nuts to loosen. It's something to consider.

 

Paint on the rotor hub where the wheel contacts the rotor will affect the friction between the wheel and rotor. Same for paint on the wheel surface that contacts the rotor. The lug bolts / stud nuts will come loose quickly, and continuously until the paint is removed. There should be a nice clean metal to metal contact surface between the rotor and wheel.

Alan

 

Hi all. I am reviving this older thread as I have a bad scare of the front lug bolts of my 05 R53 coming loose on the track. I knew I tighten them to 98 ft-lb but still they came loose. This is the first time it happened and fortunately I noticed it immediately. Drove slowing and came right back in and check them. Sure enough three had undid a few turns. I know it would not last another lap had I not notice it. It would most likely disastrous. I used to re-check the torque after a few sessions, but this time it came loose in the first session. I use no lubricant as you should not.

There is little doubt BMW undersized the front hubs (4x100mm) and lug bolts (M12) on R53. I can increase the torque a bit but I am wondering if the R56 hubs are drop-in compatible with R53 front and back? R56 has 14mm lugs vs 12mm on R53. I searched to find the answer to no avail. I know many has installed R56 rear arm which has R56 hub, the rear is not a concern for me. The front needs all the torque it needs as it bears the most stress and shocks.

And BTW, what is the torque spec on R56?

Thanks

 

I have an '04 R53 and an '06 R52..... I had to replace one front hub on the R52 because of the wheel falling off on the freeway. I had to get a hub for an '07 Mini because the '06 has 14mm lug threads. The hub's are the same except the lug bolt sizes

Bryan

 

That is most interesting. Thanks for the reply. So BMW's planned for 14mm for Gen 2 obviously recognizing that there are crazy people that do drive these cars hard. Since R52 overlaps into Gen 2 hardtop the later year receive the benefit of increase in lug size.

What is the torque spec for the 16mm R52 lugs?

 

I torqued mine to 105 ft lbs.......

When I was trying to find a front hub for my '06 R52 converrtible....all I could find was the 12mm threads in the hub.....so then I looked up an "07 MINI....with mine being a 9-06 build....the '07 hub with the 14mm threads was a perfect fit.......I seem to remember that they switched from 12 to 14mm lug threads around July of 2006 if I remember

Bryan

 

Thanks,

I looked up Bentley. For my R53 with 12mm lugs the torque is 89 +/-7 ft-lb. I have been torquing them to 96 ft-lb which is the stated max. Still I found that there is not enough clamping force to hold the Wilwood rotors from rotating until they are stopped by the lug bolts. My thought is to add up to 10% more torque which should be well within the safety margin the ME factored in.

For the 14mm lugs I found this thread on MA that offers some cross checking and history. All in ft-lb

12mm torque is 89 +/- 7
14mm torque is 103 +/- 7
gen 1 built after 07/06 has 14mm lugs (as you wrote)

So I just need to shop for hubs for R52 after that build date for 14mm lugs.

 

From what I understand torque is listed based on oem components. Aftermarket wheels and other parts changes the equation.

 

every auto part store I tried getting a hub for my '06 listed the 12mm threads.....so I started looking up the '07 car, and they listed the 14mm threads.....you will just have to look up the '07 year instead....they didn't have a mid year change listed for the different thread sizes

Bryan