I know this has been beaten to death but I've read everything I could search on.

My '08 MCSa has the upgraded JCW calipers (with drilled and slotted rotors) in the front.

I've got 20K miles on my car now and this weekend I did another HPDE class.

I've only done one other (Phil Wicks at Roebling Rd.) with the stock pads. (I don't know if the pads are different when they upgrade with the JCW calipers)

Anyway, this weekend was at VIR south and completely wore out my pads in two days.

It's not that I wasn't expecting it since there is a TON more stopping at VIR but now I need to do some replacing/upgrading.

Everything I've read tells me that there is no compromise for the most part. You either use high performance street pads (which won't last more than a weekend at the track) or you use a set of race pads (which will drive you nuts on the street with squeeling)

So, other than changing out rotors and pads each time to go to the track, does anyone have any suggestions?

I'll only do maybe 4-5 weekends a year so it's not an every weekend thing but still.

Thanks,

Mark

 

orangecrush, I don't know where you came up with this:

"Everything I've read tells me that there is no compromise for the most part. You either use high performance street pads (which won't last more than a weekend at the track) or you use a set of race pads (which will drive you nuts on the street with squeeling)"

I'm using EBC Green pads and Texas Speed Works rotors Carbon Rotors (neato keen!)

By the way, it is very cool you get onto the track. I'm annoyed with drivers and motorcyclists that never obtain this or any other additional training.

 

Well, 4 to 5 weekends a year is worth swapping pads for each HPDE IMHO. I've learned the hard way that there is no such thing as a combo street/track pad. I lost my brakes almost completely at Road America, leading to an agricultural excursion on turn 5 on stock JCW pads (although with it's a 2006 JCW). Last time I ever used stock pads on the track...

You CAN leave your track pads on the rears all the time however (I have carbotech XP8's on the rears), and just plan on swapping pads on the fronts for you HPDE's. You should be bleeding your brakes for each HPDE anyway; it doesn't take THAT long to bleed and swap pads, and it's something you should be able to do anyway--if you're at a weekend HPDE, would you rather lose the weekend after the first run due to a fried pad, or change it between sessions and keep truckin'?.

Depending on how far the drive is, I'll put my track pads on when I bleed (ie do it all at home the day before, so I don't have to do it at the track, saves me time since I have to swap out tires at the track), and then drive to the event--just have to be extra careful with the track pads on the drive up.

The only other alternative is to drive less aggressively with the stock pads--what fun is that?

 

Billie,

I talked to a lot of people this weekend at the track and did an extensive search on this forum and the internet in general.... point is, it seems to be general concenus. Obviously, you must have the right combination.

What's the difference between the yellow EBC's and the green EBC's?




I agree that swapping them out would be the best suggestion but I was trying to keep it simple.

I really didn't want to drag a floorjack, brake pads, tires, etc, etc, to the track.

I've been contemplating tires but I want to get more experienced with the stock tires. I figure by the time I've worn out 2-3 sets, I'd have a little more time under my belt.

I say that because I'm afraid that track tires will allow me to run faster/harder and therefore the potential to get myself in trouble would increase exponentially.

Anyway, my point is, once I have to drag the tires to the track too, then swapping out brakes wouldn't be that much time.

Just out of curiousity, why did you say to bleed the brakes? Just for fresh brake fluid? I ask because I didn't see the correlation between swapping brake pads and bleeding fluid.

Thanks guys,

Mark

 

Ain't that the truth! For me it was going into turn 1 at The Glen when the "combo" street/track pad went south. Thankfully the peddle just slowly went to the floor (boiled) and I made it back to the garage. The pad material just didn't hold up and basically melted. This was the second session on the pads. The fluid purchased by the installer wasn't as good as he stated it was, obviously. See photo:




I now use Hawk DTC70 pads for the track and am very happy...

 

Holding off on the tires is a good idea--street tires give you more warning before R-comps with regarding to breaking away.

As for bleeding the brakes, yes, for fresh fluid. See the post above what happens with boiled fluid...If you're going to the track, you should at the very least bleed the brakes (And you should have a good Dot 4 brake fluid in there to begin with). The last thing you want is old brake fluid at the track--it's a recipe for disaster, and safety comes first.

Since you should bleed your brakes anyway, it's not too much more work to swap pads--not so much a correlation, but it's fairly convienent to do both at the same time; do it the day before you go to the track, then you don't have to worry about doing it at the track, and you can take your time. You'll already have the tire off anyway; only adds a few more minutes. It's worth it, both for safety reasons, not to mention your rotors will thank you kindly.

4-5 HPDE's is going to be tough on the brakes, no way to get around it, and I know you're trying to keep it simple, but this is one place where you really don't want to take short cuts--you really need to pay attention to your pads/rotors with 5 HPDE's, especially if they're whole weekends. Take it from those of us who were warned, tried to compromise anyway, and realized we should have listened in the first place (guilty as charged). Take the time to learn how to bleed/change pads, if you don't already (I had to learn from scratch), it's rewarding to do, and so much more safe on the track.

 

Thanks guys, I really appreciate it. I agree, changing the pads isn't a big deal time-wise but I was thinking of the equipment I'd have to drag with me.

And I definitely agree with the learn now approach. The reason I said I wanted to hold off on tires is because just like you mentioned, I've had several more experienced members tell me the same thing.

At my age, I'm smart enough to listen.

Besides, I'm not mechanically challenged. At 46, I've been tearing into motors for almost 30 years and owning two large bodyshops, I've got more tools than I know what to do with.

Guess now I just need to decide which pads to take to the track. One last question though... obviously I've got the JCW calipers with drilled and slotted rotors (which I'm told I'd be better off with blanks) but since I've got them, can I continue to use them or do I need another set of rotors. (or should I be changing rotors AND pads when I get to the track?)

Thanks,

Mark

 

Not many people change the rotors until they need to be changed. Wait until they are worn down to what the manufacturer says is required for replacement. Pads and fluid are the important parts. I don't agree with changing fluid everytime you go to the track, unless the interval is really long in between. Bleeding is fine (IMHO) between events but change the fluid a couple times during the summer assuming you are in a colder climate and your not blessed with decent weather all year long.

Rotor replacement for me will require safety wiring so that's not a quick job, but a simple rotor change isn't bad.

 

Speaking of rotors....

Obviously since using the Mini to it's fullest capabilities (in stock setting) I really gave a beating to the rotors and pads.

The last two days finished them off and by the time I drove back from VIR, they were toast.

I was going to order new pads and turn my rotors when I called my dealer.

I took the car in and they replaced the pads and rotors for free. I wasn't sure if they were going to exclude it since it says "normal wear and tear" but with Mini always promoting Mini's racing background and pushing the driver's kind of car to drive, I thought I had a chance.

Well, apparently it was okay, I took the car in and they replaced them.

Wow is all I can say.

Mark

 

I wouldn't bother ever turning the rotors. You sound eerily similar to how I started and progressed....

As for the rotors, slotted is fine, but for your next set I'd stay away from drilled--they'll crack easier; each one of those holes weakens the rotor, and it's not uncommon to see a crack running from one hole to the next (Not to mention they're more expensive); more for bling on the MINI than performance (they really don't do much if anything for heat loss; brake ducts are much better for that). But since they're already on, I'd use them up before getting new rotors.

I am in the midst of deciding what I'm going to do long-term for brakes--probably going to go with the TSW BDM 11.75/1.25 kit--I've currently got the Wilwood 11.75/.81 kit, but I fear I've outgrown it (that's what I went to after frying my JCW pads). The Wilwood also requires safety wiring, a major PITA as mentioned above, another reason to switch to the TSW kit (which doesn't, neither does the JCW kit).

But the new JCW kit you have on, with the proper pads, should pretty much do it. I would eventually switch to a slotted or simply plain rotor next go around, but for now I'd run what you have. I don't switch rotors for the track (some folks do), but I do switch pads/tires. And I agree with the above poster--for 5 HPDE's, I'd start the season with brand new brake fluid at the beginning of the season (I use ATE superblue and alternate with amber, makes it easy to completely flush, others swear by Motul, but it's twice as expensive), and simply bleed before each event (although I have to admit, I'll do a complete flush halfway through the season). If I'm doing a weekend event, I don't always bleed between days, but I try to if I can.

It is kind of a pain to lug stuff to the track, but I bring four tires, a large bin with all my tools and extra pads, and a lightweight racing jack (got it from harborfreight; it's so light it's a breeze to carry around). A torque wrench is also a must for the track; you probably already know to periodically check to make sure the lugs aren't loosening. I'd strongly recommend getting one, or at least borrowing one at the track if you don't--I've had a few lugs get very loose, but I always check them before a run, probably saved my rear more than once.


But if you don't want to lug all that stuff around, people will loan you stuff no problem--I don't know how many times I've let someone borrow my jack...

 

Just to make sure we're on the same page, the JCW brake upgrade I have is 2008.

I mention that because the 2009 JCW brake calipers are even larger.

I'm assuming the 2008 JCW brake upgrade will be fine with the correct pads but just wanted to make sure we're talking about the same thing.

Thanks,

Mark

 

^^^

 

Yep, we're on the same page. I had the previous generation JCW brakes; the newer ones that you have are significantly better, and should be great for HPDE's.

One of the key things for me was to run 15 inch tires, which limits brake choices. You can improve brake fade by increasing diamter (which the JCW kit does) or by width (which is what I'm doing so I can run 15's.). It's all good, just depends on your personal preference.

Again, I wasn't that happy with the 1st gen. JCW brakes, but the second generation you have, with the proper pads, should be fantastic on the track.

 

orangecrush,
you should be commended for all the homework you are doing. One or more of the other fellows covered "why" to bleed brakes. I'll add when I used to race a variety of vehicles, it was necessary to bleed brakes about every 3rd or 4th event to keep the braking power tip top. I've always been kind of light on brakes with automotibles. Maybe that is why the green pads work for me (and I have raced them).

You asked about two EBC pad colors. They are:

green = spirited street driving; "non-asbestos organic formulation using aramid fibers without steel fibers or carbon particles"

yellow = race pad that bites pretty good even when cold; ceramic

Bonuses:
supreme green = green pad for large vehicles
red = extreme street driving; ceramic

As previously stated, I really like to hear that people spend the money and take the time to get onto the track. It makes them so much better street drivers. And, the track is a TON of fun because it is so much safer than the street.

 

I think you're right about the brakes with the right pads. When I spent two days at Roebling, I was using the stock pads then and though Roebling isn't as demanding on the brakes as VIR was, they worked great, no fade, no issues, I was impressed.

As a matter of fact, they worked great at VIR. Unfortunately, the hotter they became, I was starting to get pad transfer onto the rotors.

It wasn't long after than (on the second day) that the pads wore REAL fast.

So with better pads, hopefully, I shouldn't have a problem.

Thanks,

Mark

 

orangecrush,
That Roebling track layout looks like a nice loop for automobiles. Can see why you are enjoying it and burning up pads!

 

I appreciate it, it's better to understand the why's and how's from people that have more experience than I. You guys have all been through this and typically an amateur runs into the same exact problems that those more experienced have already encountered.

Soooo, thanks for being my guinea pigs.

But these are for the track only, right? Cannot drive on the street, correct... just making sure.

That's really ironic that you say that. About 7 years ago, I took 3 levels of Keith Codes California Superbike Racing school and an advanced level of Kevin Schwantz's Suzuki Racing school.

I had been riding for about 20 years and figured that if I could learn to race, it would make me a much better rider on the street.

I can honestly say that training has saved my life on the street. Point is, taking Phil Wicks classes and the class I took at VIR this weekend will only make me a better driver... and like you said, it's waaay more fun on the track and safer.

Thanks for all your help, you guys are great.


Mark

 

Though mostly on sportbikes, I've been on VIR north and south, Mid Ohio, Road Atlanta, Kershaw, Roebling Rd and hopefully the new track in Kentucky.

I'd have to say that though they are all fun, Roebling Road was on the top of that list... then Mid Ohio (though it needed to be repaved)

Mark

 

Good discussion.

Personally, I'm a fan of the Carbotech pads... all their pad materials are compatible, so no issues with swapping between street and track pads on the same rotors. I've been running Bobcats on the street and AX6 for mountains and light track days. Just got XP10 F / XP8 R which I'll run for track sessions this year.

My plan is to put the track pads on at home before I drive to the track. I MIGHT leave the XP8s on the rear all the time... depends on how dusty and noisy they are for daily use. I'll still carry a jack, torque wrench, spare pads, bleeder, fluid, etc to the track just in case. For tires/wheels, I run what I drive there on.

 

Blimey, You'll be fine with the XP8's on all the time--I have had no squeaking, and less dust than OEM pads.

I'm probably going to go with XP10's on the rears this year, and XP12's up front, or TSW's pad of choice.

 

orangecrush,
Yes, I think the EBC yellow (race) pads don't work well on the street for most people because they won't be able to use them forcefully and routinely enough. Now that you mentioned it, though, I hope to try it out this year. The red ones can be used for track days and street driving, but they have to be pushed a little on the street.

Now I know why we connected. It's motorcycles!! For me, too, several track days and Keith Code was all it took. Then I started club racing through the American Federation of Motorcyclists (AFM) and as many moto and auto track days as I could find. The tracks I've used regularly are Thunderhill, Buttonwillow, Laguna Seca, and Sears Point (Infineon Point in modern nomenclature). The Sports Car Club Association (SCCA) is very active here so it has been easy to get involved with them, too.