My subframe is indeed out of alignment despite the Mini dealership stating otherwise.

while on an alginment jig, I check the cross distances between the bolt the fastens the bottom of the rear damper to the center of the outer ball joint bolt. Basically, the subframe is 9/16" off center - 1/16" more than a half inch. A lot!

Cross distances - right front with left rear etc. I checked the rear subframe against other measurements and the control link lengths just to make sure I was referencing my cross measurements from an accurate foundation.

 

Well, it's good that you've found the problem. Now, what's the solution? I really hope you get your car sorted out soon.

 

Was it in an accident? Perhaps you can find a body shop with an electronic frame machine and they can tell exactly where the problem lays. They usually charge about 60/hr for frame machine work.

 

Michael, I keep thinking about that gap in door we were looking at when we were at LRP, ... and de short discussion we had about maybe why it waqs there.
It would be interesting if you could find if there is any twist in either of the two front upright parts that attach it to the subframe.

 

Same thought.
Have you done a Carfax on this car?

 

I am not saying you are right or you are wrong. But what I would like to say is that when doing suspension mods on my old car, 04 Scion Xb, which included airbags and the like. After I got it all done, I did notice that my driverside rear wheel was almost half of an inch away from the inside of the fender. The passenger side was about 1/8 of an inch. I thought I may have damaged something. I looked at a ton of other Xb's, and realized it was designed that way. Once I got everyone else to look at their vehicle as well, we all agreed it was designed that way?! Why we have no clue. But it is only noticeable to someone who is looking for it. Very hard to tell on stock springs. Why was it designed that way we had no clue. We at first thought there was a problem causing the rear to shift.
Like I said, Im not saying you are right or wrong. Was just telling you an experience I had. I would take it to another dealer and see what they had to say. Just because the vehicle may be able to be aligned to factory specs, is not saying the unibody/subframe is perfect.

 

For road going cars and most road course cars, the suspension must be squared up. If it is not, it's wrong.

I did not have time to inlcude the below part of the story this morning:

What eluded me for so long was everyone showed me the specs after the alignments and there was no mis-alignment with regard to track. Then a big light bulb went on in my head ; I have four adjustable rear links. If the subframe were off center, it would be very easy for an alignment tech to simply make the right side rear links long enough to match up with a mis-aligned subframe. And indeed, both links on the right side are longer. So, from my car's centerline, the track is wider on the right side. I disconnected the lower right link and made it the same length as the left side then began my cross measurements.

Unfortunately, I drive betwen 150 and 200 miles a day and some of these problems have cause really odd tire wear on basically brand new Michellins - at $170.00 each. The $1,200.00 spent on the bushings...I'm about to get into that one with BMW now. I'm hoping I made a good association with a garage who will loan me a lift to correct this work. I'm not sure I want BMW/Mini fixing this, even if there is no charge.

Onasled - I wondered about your observation for a while...and in fact, one head light sticks out farther than the other...not that this is connected. Perhaps it was hit while in shipping...

For goofs and giggles, I should try to install the reast of the M7 USS - I doubt the big part will fit now...

I hate friggin stuff like this, but the real problem, as Onasled also abserved, is I need this car every day. If it were a track only car, the pressure would be much less.

 

Michael. I just got back from working on my car. I wanted to confirm that I was correct in saying that the front subframe has no adjustability, so I placed mine on the car. There in fact in NO adjustability in the slightest, but again, this is on an early 03.

That your adjustable control arms are different length does not really back up misalignment. You would have to make sure that the trailing arm bushing housings are in alignment first. The best bet would be to put the factory arms back on and align the car. they would have to do this in the rear by locating those housings in the proper location. Now you can check the track more correctly.

Were these trailing arms removed ever?

 

The rear links were installed by me exactly the same as stock - until an alignment was possible. I simply lined up the bolt holes in each - stock and new - until a bolt passed thru both easily.

That written, if the links are the same length left to right and are centered properly, the track should be centered as the four links locate major wheel location. The bushing will deflect based upon the length of the links. If the bushing is not the same left to right, there will be a different load _ deflection - on each and therefore another potential problem...thanks man.

With regard to the subframe adjustment; I'm disheartened by your news. I was hoping you were wrong...by just a little. I cannot understand why, however, the notches in the cambers plates are off by double what they were before the subframe was R and R. That indicates something to me. I'm seriously thinking of removing all the parts and selling the car at this point. I've never had this much trouble with a car - $1,500.00 to date on alignments and one corner balancing. I'll have lots of used parts to sell, stand by...

Greg, is it possible to install the subframe out of square? In other words, are a few points fixed while others are not...?

 

I've mentioned before that the front subframe has two huge locating dowles at the front and misalignment would have to be malicious. The rear can be misaligned when doing a rear swaybar or after adding rear control arms and gaining the extra adjustment. I would check the rear subframe position, then set control arms to factory length, then align it with the factory tool, then set the rear camber with the arms, then start the alignmnet over.

 

Michael, don't throw-in the towel just yet... I feel your frustration.

As 002 just said, the rear sub-frame comes to mind as a possibility, and as I think onasled said, the trailing arms. I'll be looseing mine up this weekend for those bushing inserts. It sounds as though the control arms might not be the culprits...

002 seems right on.

 

I just came out from under the car (4hours) - it was on an alignment rack. I adjusted all the rear links equally and re-measured cross lengths. Everything is now squared up. I did not have to touch the front subframe; I thought I might need to do this, but my measurements the other day were primitive - I was on my back.

I checked many more relationships and found one that may or may not be part of the cause - two alignment techs agreed with my findings.

I'm focusing on the knuckle (hub) for a while. Assuming the subframe is in perfect condition, the knuckles may be the problem. All relationships between brake rotor and hub are identical so offset or back space is identical left to right. However, the distance between the portion of the knuckle that pinches the damper and the subframe upright that is next to each damper is different by as much as the camber plates indicate on the strut towers - 9/16". At first I thought that one of the knuckles was bent and hence the difference up top. But the problem continues at the wheel; one wheel is 9/16" under a fender well while the other is flush. Yes, yes, I know we don't use fenders as points of reference, but in this case the difference is 9/16". So, we have three points that are equally off; the strut tower, the distance between the damper pinch sleeve and the subframe upright and the distance between fender well and top of rim - all are identical. So, the knuckle cannot be bent; a bent knuckle cannot account for the relationship between the top of wheel and fender well differences.

But, one knuckle could have less depth to it making it reside 9/16" closer to the car's center line while at the same time providing the correct positioning for the control arms and outer ball joints. I've seen cars who's bearings were not pressed in equally left to right...

If the knuckles turn out to be in perfect condition, and, the subframe is in perfect condition, and, cannot be adjusted, then the unibody that locates the subframe is bent...but then, the cross measurements are identical - left outer ball joint to right rear lower damper bolt - 99 5/8" for both sides.

Now I'm lost...perhaps the angle of the strut towers are not identical...then both SVRCs would be off - Side View Roll Centers - responsible for anti-dive and anti-squat characterisitics.

So, I don't know...I'm staying on this until I find the problem, but I was kicked off the alignment rig. Twas free...nice guys.

Any and all thoughts welcome.

EDIT: NOW, IF I MAKE BOTH CAMBER ADJUSTMENTS VISUALLY EQUAL RIGHT TO LEFT, ALL THE ABOVE CONDITIONS DISAPPEAR...MAYBE THE ALIGNMENT MACHINE IS OFF...WOULDN'T THAT BE NICE? AS A SIDE NOTE, THESE ARE BASELINE ALIGNMENTS, NO DRIVER. CAMBER WILL BE DIFFERENT FROM SIDE TO SIDE AFTER CORNER BALANCING...JUST SO YOU DON'T THINK I'M A COMPLETE IDIOT...

Michael

 

Michael,

You're well beyond my ability to offer useful advice. So, I'll offer to buy you a beer once you get it sorted out. :D

 

I was able to move the rear axle carrier about an eighth inch in an attempt at fixing a sway bar issue but unfortunately that won’t help with the cross distance measurement by itself. As others have mentioned track can be altered with upper and lower control arms and the trailing arm bracket. The bracket has slotted holes to allow some latitude although I think it would depend on which way you needed to go whether the disparity could be corrected and still have reasonable toe measurements. Edit (it now appears to be a moot point)

I’m not saying there isn’t un-disclosed damage but each MINI build has its own unique quirks. My driver’s side mounting holes for the sway-bar bracket are drilled at a different point than the passenger’s. For a large diameter bar the bushing bracket has to be slotted to provide enough adjustment to prevent binding and not contact the mid point axle carrier mount. I reamed the bracket holes on the smaller bar just the same to ensure I can find a “relaxed fit”. I go through this ritual when re-mounting the rear sub-frame/axle carrier: tighten the upper bolts then the lower mid bolts, loosen the bolts, lift the trailing arms up and down to let the control arms find their track, tighten the mid bolts then the upper bolts, torque to spec., rotate the sway bar a few times, work the mounting screws tighter in increments while continuing to articulate the bar and then tighten completely. This is a little overkill but letting the sub-frame orient itself puts it in a position that’s different than what was the factory’s install. When the older sway bar was in bind it required two hands and some effort to get it to move. It wasn’t only the miss-matched bracket holes fault; that was a limited first production run bar, with incorrect schedule bends that allowed it to migrate. That was a bit OT but the bottom line is it may be "uniqueness".

 

...I've been told that I'm unique Keith , and so is the Mini...maybe I should just look the other way:impatient . Onasled said "...your **** about this, not in a bad way..." and he's right! I can't help it.

The outward problem is a severe pull and it affects the car as it tranistions over undulations and bumps. Caster is within spec, thrust angle is 0.01 degrees so who knows. I just want to take this little @$!@#%% out on the track right now and run it...but anger and set-up don't usually make good bedfellows.

 

Please don’t get me wrong, I wasn’t trying to trivialize and I don’t think it should be ignored; that is until no valid solution can be found.

I’ve given advice to an insatiable power hungry mod man that went something like this “…it is easier (and less costly) to change your attitude and accept the power you have than to remain envious of other’s (un-substantiated) power claims”, but that was as close as I’ve come to telling someone to look the other way on this forum.

I’m still scratching my head on your behalf.

 

Oh I know you're not trivializing...I've seen pictures of your car and your work; you speak with experience

snid - I'll take you up on that beer now! Fermentation...then licitude...then sleep, ah, sleep - what is that?