Redshift, are you in the US, or Europe?

Good example of different setups for different conditions. In MY State, doing triple digits you don't have to worry about doing too many miles - the car will be in impound soon enough.

I've only had the pleasure of a few thousand autobahn miles - nothing like passing a semi in the blinding rain, or having someone pull in front of you when you're doing a buck ten to get your attention. (ABS - good!)

If you prefer to set up your car to understeer, I would not protest. As I said previously, my perception of neutral was perceived by another driver as understeer. It all depends on how it feels behind the wheel...

 

As I said previously, my perception of neutral was perceived by another driver as understeer. It all depends on how it feels behind the wheel...

Yes Eric! But also, as I wrote earlier, neutral on an autoX track is not necessarily neutral on an open road course.

 

Now I have found the thread that really alarmed me and prompted my writing. Here is an excerpt:
Subject: 19mm vs. 22mm rear sway bars posted on Mini2 by Mini2 newbie ++crazyaboutmini++
who on October 6, 2005 asked - so what’s the difference getting the 19mm and 22mm rear sway bars?

To which ++ kapps++ a Mini2 senior replied
Bigger doesn't always mean better. The larger bar will cause less under steer or more over steer depending on the setting. For street use, you don't want over steer as you can't always floor it to get the back end back in its place. Even on the track, high speed corners will be easier to take with a smaller rear sway bar as you don't have much time if the rear end steps out at 120 mph. The larger bar will be better for slower auto-x tracks where you can keep the foot in it longer around a corner.

To which ++Chows4us++ replied:
19mm bar is for wimps. 22mm effective (which is the 25mm hollow H comp bar), is best because of the zerk fittings allows you to grease the bar without getting under and messing with it.

To which ++xtrempsionic++ replied:
Hehe, call me a wimp. I have the 18mm 2 hole H&R in my Cooper (SS). I can make it over steer by lifting off when the suspension is fully compressed (middle of a very hard corner) or by trail braking.
Otherwise it’s always a very mild under steer. I find this setup perfect for me; I like to push the car and not really have to worry about it much, and still have "fun" with a slightly more aggressive driving style.

To which ++Chow4us++ replied:
I don’t see it that way at all. In fact, read some threads on rear sway bars on NAM. Virtually nobody buys 19.

Being new to the Mini forums but not being new to sports cars or to real world driving, I personally feel that the wrong message is being sent to people who might not have the benefit of substantial driving experience that would help them to make a wise decision. They might inadvertently set up their cars to the point of being unsafe. Sorry ++Chows4us++ but I would encourage most people, especially with daily driver cars, to not only start out with a more compliant sway bar (i.e. 19mm) but to keep it that way because being safe is always more fun than having an accident (ask me – I know).

Here is a thread from Grass Roots Motor Sports which gives more food for thought on this subject:


http://www.grmotorsports.com/news/01...-roll-bars.php

To Eric who asked where I am – I’m in New York – but over the past 20 years I’ve spent about 120 weeks in Europe, mostly for work at 1500km per week average. Most of the mileage is in company or rentals cars but kept a BMW motorcycle over there for a couple of years of fair weather use. Cars I drove the most over there in 2005: 2005 Audi TT (picked it up with 200km returned it with 3400km), 2005 (new style) Golf TDI, 2005 Audi A8 Turbo diesel. Automotive events I attended in Europe in 2005: Goodwood Revival England (Vintage car races) whole weekend, Techno Classica Essen Germany (largest indoor classic car – pre 1980- show in the world – 1500 cars), IAA – Frankfurt Auto Show (worlds largest new car show – even 2 full days is not enough to see it all).

All smiles are mine.

 

What did I say on Post #45?

This all depends upon what your comfortable with and have experience with. If you dont know what to do or have never had the tail end come around, then its safer for you to be in Group B. ...

Do what you feel safe with Be safe unless your confident in your driving.

I believe that is VERY conservative advice (i.e., be safer in your Group B. ... Do what feels safe to you) .... How more conservative could I be????

 

I would expand that to say that it differs for every corner, and at every point in the corner. Elevation change, camber, road surface, etc. all affect how the car will handle in a particular corner, as well as entry speed and all the other car factors. Neutral is a static expression for a dynamic event.


Redshift - I would not disagree with you regarding Chow's comments as posted. Being a 'wimp' or a 'stud' is irrelevant in setting up your car's suspension.

However, your comment of "being safe is always more fun than having an accident" is a truism. Of course not crashing is better than crashing. But if more understeer is safer, and being safer is more fun, then we should either leave the rear bar untouched, or remove it altogether! It's all a matter of degrees and personal taste. I do agree, as I have stated before, that suspension changes should be made in incremental steps, and care must be taken to understand the changes made, and how they will affect the car.

 

Sorry ++Chow4us++ but I still don’t think we see eye to eye on this. Personally I find your tone to be somewhat condescending if not downright provocative.

I wouldn’t call saying: ++19mm bar is for wimps++ particularly conservative

You said: This all depends upon what your comfortable with and have experience with. If you don’t know what to do or have never had the tail end come around, then its safer for you to be in Group B. ...

The above statement implies you are talking to someone who doesn’t have experience or doesn’t know what to do. Even the greatest race car drivers have accidents. It is precisely because I have experience that I encourage allowing for a margin of error.

You said: Do what you feel safe with. Be safe unless your confident in your driving.

Here you suggest a lack of confidence among your intended audience. Frankly I was way over confident about my driving skills when I was 16 so this sort of statement would have provoked me into getting a larger diameter sway bar.

You said: I believe that is VERY conservative advice (i.e., be safer in your Group B. ... Do what feels safe to you) .... How more conservative could I be???? Go live in Iran?

 

Redshift, your reading way too much into this. The "wimp" comments was being facetious

Try not to read between the lines. You looking for something that isnt there. I just don't know more what to say than "be safe" I really don't understand why someone would read more than the words written. If you read "condescending" into words that aren't written then we will agree to disagree

 

got ur answer after much debate!! lucky dawg u !! those are sum kick *** shows/events

 

They may have been facetious, but since we are not setting across the table from you and are reading it in a forum, we can only take it as it was written.