Isn't neutral handling dangerous to the average driver (like me)? I thought all cars today are set up from the factory with generous understear to prevent accidents. I understand dialing out some of this but going to neutral handling.

RandyBMC said:[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"When you go into a turn too hot, what is the natural tendancy - lift off the throttle right? (This is what I do)

Here is how cars with different set ups will react to that:

[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Understeer - the car will tuck back in line - it was pushing to begin with if you were too hot.

Oversteer - the rear end will want to swap ends with the front.

Neutral - it completely depends on how you react - let off a bit, and the rear end will want to come around, but give it a bit of gas, and the car will push. If you get it just right, the car will tuck in line and be as fast as you can be through the corner."

I'd be too scared to hit the gas in this kind of situation on the street. The "if you get it just right" part conflicts with my strong sense of self preservation.
[/FONT]P.S. - the smiles are mine.

 

I am also looking at the 19mm for the same reasons posted above...take out a bit of the piggish understeer, but still leave the car safe enough that you can hand the keys to anyone & not worry about them or have to warn them about a sway bar.

While the 20+mm bars may work this way, I want to go easy with it. I had a miata with a large rear bar once...made it VERY dicey to drive, took a lot of the fun out of driving the car.

-jac

 

but on the three hole adjustment bars, is it possible to make it even softer????
hmmmm!? havent seen any info on this!

 

Sway bars are an integral part of any set-up. How they work depends upon the diameter, method of attachment, and, the rates of the springs and dampers - often overlooked; soft springs and dampers allow bars to twist more and faster. Get it? So, size does matter, but so do other things.

 

the maim reason i havent yet ventured out w/my suspension is cuz i my ultimate need is to ride real low but still have enough travel to dampen the ride wether its for performance or comfort, most ALL set ups dont werk real well in the low settin' after a certain point.
as far as sway bars go i ran a set on my early bug and it did okay but theres wuz room for improvement so w/the MINI im plannin' on a full suspension swap after doin' the coil overs endlinks and all, but would u say this is overkill for street, sum track, alot of people on here have said that the oem links are ok but in my opinion i dont see it!!
so meb watcha think???

 

Read http://store.webbmotorsports.com/ind...7ddb84b6a1e401

Randy calls coilovers major overkill for 95% of owners

 

I have the R-Speed 22m set on the middle setting,I'm more than pleased with the handling.Q

 

i really need the suspension to be adjustable cuz of the area i live in!!
....but more importantly i like the ground huggin' stance

i've decided to go w/Pss9's but dont know that im to happy w/spring rates.....
thx chows, we live real close to each other, i think?
u seem to have a g00d idea of wats goin' on in the MINI world, im more into vintage....we should meet up sum day

 

We will. I think you might have been at Randys Pulley Party when I came by to talk to Randy. Come to a DCMM event, lots of good people there. Breakfast at Tates is usually a good social occasion. Lots of ppl stop by

 

those dcmm events are on the weekends, i jus bought a biz. so i must werk the weekends for a while yet........i will try to make it out

 

Next one is at Sterling on the 21st, fyi.

 

huh!?

 

Its the third sat of the month, breakfast. Used to be at Tates, not they are alternating months between Sterling and Tate

 

Neutral handling isn't dangerous. Oversteer is. Because suspensions and roads are dynamic, neutral only happens at a point in time on any given turn, depending on how you approach it, and what you do when you get there.
Randy's definition of neutral sounds more like my definition of oversteer.
In reality, you set up a car with tendencies. Stock, the MCS tends to understeer. (Ok, it always understeers. ) You dial that out with the sway bar, based on your comfort level. I had my miata set up so it felt fairly neutral to me. A racer drove it around Sears Point and said it was hard to drive fast because it understeered. It all depends on your perspective. (Note that one sleepy morning, I entered an onramp without noticing the metering lights were on. When I DID notice, I lifted, hit the brakes, and did a 360. So much for understeer...)

Fishbulb - the MINI will NEVER oversteer like the Miata. That's a good thing. And a bad thing. That said, it's always safer to start softer. You can always get stiffer if you didn't go stiff enough - used sways hold their value, and aren't that tough to install. Bodywork, on the other hand, is ALWAYS expensive.

 

If neutral handling isn't potentially dangerous why would a well respected manufacturer like H-Sport identify their 22mm equivelent hollow bar as competition only. See excerpt from their website below:

Competition Rear Bar
Item#: 22810R
02+ Mini Cooper/Cooper S
The Competition Rear is a massive 25.5mm, tubular, 4130 chrome moly sway bar weighing in at only 5.5 pounds! Recommended for competition use only, the Competition Rear has three adjustment positions with the softest setting being the more neutral balance. From there, the middle setting will really aid the Mini'*s medium to long mid-corner speed where there will not be any throttle feathering needed to turn the car. The stiffest setting is most beneficial through very slow, tight corners

...medium to long mid-corner speed? Not in my neighborhood - Sounds like racer jargon!

Alternately they have a 19mm bar called the Sport Bar:
The Sport Rear Sway Bar
Item#: 22800R
02+ Mini Cooper/Cooper S
Due to popular request, Hotchkis Sport now offers the Sport Rear Bar! The Sport Rear is a 3 position, 19 mm, tubular sway bar. Recommended for street and track use, the Sport Rear may be used in combination with the stock front bar. All three settings on the Sport Rear are very useful if you attend track days, yet the bar itself is perfectly suitable for daily street use without any harsh ride effects of a larger bar. Plus, you may find yourself using the hardest setting at the track and then backing down to the middle or softest setting for your daily commute.

...is perfectly suitable for daily street use without any harsh ride effects of a lager bar. - I understand this - sounds like my language.

I'm new here (my first week in NAM), and hope I'm not speaking out of turn, but, there appears to me to be 2 groups of people using this forum who have significantly different objectives in hopping up their cars. Group A (I'll call this the 22-25.5mm bar group) is highly skilled and sees winning as an important issue and I wish I was qualified to be in that group. Then there is the B group (I'll call this the 18-20mm bar group) who wants to have edgier, but no less safe (or comfortable), fun. I've resigned myself to being in the latter group.

 

This is common practice with aftermarket parts makers. More than anything I think it's just a way to try to reduce liability, and of course warranty claims.

 

A ham sandwich is 'potentially dangerous' if you choke on it.

IMO, you are speaking out of turn. For whatever reason you lump me (who chose a 22mm bar) into a group that "sees winning as an important issue". Though I'm not sure what it is I'm supposed to be winning. There is certainly a continuum of objectives and desires in modding. They cannot be neatly lumped into two categories as you suggest (nor six, given three positions on each bar.)

What you may have failed to contemplate, is that a 25.5mm bar, being 3.5mm larger than a 22mm bar and 5.5mm larger than the stock bar, has been known to rub against the body in the tight space allocated to it. Is that why it's recommended for competition use only? Or is it good marketing to the Fast and Furious crowd, while setting it apart from the lower priced alternative, and marketing it to a different audience?

As I stated earlier, if you're wary of inducing oversteer and it's potentially harmful outcomes, you should start with a smaller bar. However, if your goal is to make your car no less safe, then you should not add an aftermarket sway bar. It will understeer less, and that is not as safe.
(That said: Understeer is when the front of your car hits the tree. Oversteer is when the rear of your car hits the tree.)

You also seem to be influenced by the marketing speak about "any harsh ride effects of a larger bar". Note that a harsh ride is generally caused by shocks and springs, with springs being the biggest factor (unless you have your adjustables on full hard.) A larger sway bar will have virtually no effect on comfort going down the road (bumpy or smooth.)

Stick around, read, listen and learn - if you haven't modded a car before, there are many lessons to learn. Best lesson is to attend a driving school/event. Then you can let someone drive your car faster than you ever will (thanks, Randy!) and experience the nuances of handling with less chances of hitting solid objects.

FWIW, while the 'crank up the sway bar for the track day' sounds intriguing, I believe that would be a dangerous thing to do, at least for a beginner. If you're not used to lift throttle oversteer, you don't necessarily want to induce it, and be introduced to it, when lifting through the carousel at Laguna.

 

I agree with almost everything you said except this one. I've done full sway bar (front and back) swaps on other cars and with thicker bars, there is a lot more "head tossing" motion when you hit a 1 sided bump. They do add to the ride harshness overall, but you're right, springs, dampers, the tire sidewall and suspension bushings usually are bigger factors.

That said, can't say I feel much ride difference between the stock 16mm rear bar and the 18mm H&R on the MINI.

 

Just thought I would post this again...

Sway bars are an integral part of any set-up. How they work depends upon the diameter, method of attachment, and, the rates of the springs and dampers - often overlooked; soft springs and dampers allow bars to twist more and faster. Get it? So, size does matter, but so do other things.


Springs, dampers, bushings, sway bars and tire compliance all affect ride comfort. To what degree? Refer back to the bolded paragraph above.

Further, the term neutral cannot be applied to every condition; neutral on an autoX track will more than likely be oversteer on an open road course. The speeds are difference, the radii are different and so is the rate of suspension loading and unloading. On an autoX track, the suspension is loaded and unloaded at very quick rates. On an open road course, the suspension may take a long time to load and then remain fairly consistent for a much longer period of time. Here, it is extremely important to remove any vises from your set up. On an autoX track, vises may not show up because the suspension unloads very quickly.

 

Let me add this. First, dont pay too much heed to what any vendor advertises. If you do, you may be disappointed.

Second, about Group A and B. This all depends upon what your comfortable with and have experience with. If you dont know what to do or have never had the tail end come around, then its safer for you to be in Group B.

When I first started to read about MCS bars, I saw much "fear" (like yours) in some people over the larger bars. I thought it silly. But I have spun 180s and 360s (accidently of course, kind of scary) in other cars and thought whats the big deal. I "almost" bought a 19mm bar and am glad I didn't ended up with the H-Comp. Drove it home, had the wife go out and she asked what the big deal was too. On the softest setting it still understeer much closer to neutral. BTW, the bar is hollow so its effective 22 mm.

Also remember to many ppl, they might have the experience and many ppl here like to Xcross or go on track days so their opinions will be in that direction.

Do what you feel safe with Be safe unless your confident in your driving.

 

I'd say be safe even if you ARE confident in your driving!

Chow does make a good point about trying it out - with MINI clubs and modded cars all around, if you have the chance to test drive similar cars with alternative size bars, that is the best. Only you know what feels comfortable for you.

 

Agreed. I really meant do what makes you comfortable and safe. Then move up to another bar!

 

I guess I'm against big roll bars because of the way I drive - which is mostly high speed highway type driving. No autocrosses or spirited driving in residential neighborhoods. I've driven way, way over 1,000,000 miles on highway. Mostly on the East Coast but more than 100,000 miles of that is at 125 miles per hour and above, rain or shine, (mostly rain) on the Autobahns, Autostradas, Motorways, and Autoroutes of Europe. At highway speeds you certainly want a compliant rear swar bar, one that clearly exhibits understeer, to avoid getting into an accident. (On my '99 Miata I have the Bilstien PSS system with the stock sway bars). This may explain why the Cooper Works suspension doesn't even offer a bigger rear sway bar and why Eibach of Germany and the BMW tuner Dinan only sell a 19mm bar for the Mini. A quick search indicates that a lot of other companies make 18-19-20mm sway bars for the Mini/MCS such as: Alta, Ultrik, UUC, H-Sport, H+R, and Whiteline (of Australia).

Following is a copy of a post from PistonFire on Mini2 which I think helps illustrate my point:
***********************
Hey there. I have a '05 Cooper S on 16" wheels & runflats still with the h-sport comp rear bar and their sport springs. I love it and have it on the soft setting. At very low speeds I find the car is like stock. At moderate speeds going around bends or off ramps the car can be easily pointed where you want it. Gas it and the front pushes abit or let off the gas and the rear will begin to come around (oversteer) and pull the car tighter to apex. Great fun. At above 100mph I find the car seems to turn more with the rear so be careful. The car corners without heasitation and I have no complants. Hope this helps! I haven't tried the other settings yet, but my buddy runs his mini all the time with the medium setting and a friend of his wrecked his mini on the highway with the hard setting due to slide'n.
************************
Where he says at 100mph I suspect he means on dry pavement without a cinder block falling off the truck in front of him or someone on a cell phone veering into his lane...in the rain. When designing a car for daily highway use you must consider worst case - not best case senarios. In an emergeny manuver, in less than ideal conditions, that speed number could be revised considerably downward. Most of my close calls on the road were due to unexpected things happening...where I reacted by hitting the brakes and cutting the wheel. You see a lot of weird things on the road over a 1,000,000 miles.


Just re-reading the Road and Track magazine where they test drove the Lamborghini Murcielago and they wrote...the firmness of the suspension holds the car rock-steady with slight understeer...
Now for $273,000 you'de think they could get the handling neutral!

 

Nice post Redshift

 

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