For what it's worth, I had the USS installed last week. I have a Cooper Cabrio with stock suspension and a 19mm Alta sway bar. I haven't been on any twisty roads yet but I have hit some curling off-ramps pretty hard and taken some fast corners. There is a big difference in the way the car handles when turning now and it's not imagined. With no roof, the cabrio would flex a lot. Now I feel like I can almost pivot in place because of the added stiffness. Can I prove it? Well, no I can't. But that's the way it is with many things. Am I happy with it? Absolutely. In the end, that's what matters most. And I try to remember that no one else is repsonsible for my happiness.

 

Everyone? I don't think so. Some people? Absolutely. 96% (now) of those surveyed? Highly unlikely.

Suggesting that a 96% owner satisfaction rating means nothing is basically saying that ANY kind of owner reviews are meaningless, because EVERYONE would OBVIOUSLY vote in favor of something they spent money on.... Take a look at the reviews for pretty much any electronics product on Amazon or hotels on hotels.com or whatever - there's almost never a shortage of folks who will pan a product or service that just doesn't work or is highly problematic, even though these folks bought the product, just as all the people here bought the USS... goaljnky isn't shy about stating his opinion here... if the product were worthless, there would be other similarly passionate negative voters... in my experience, human nature is to get pizzed (like goaljnky) when you think you've wasted $350... but you don't hear many folks here that feel that way about the USS (possibly less so than ANY other product discussed at length on NAM...)

 

So, can we now talk about the real issues?

Like that the link for the USS instructions on the M7 site is broken (uppercase / lowercase letter issues). And then, once you get the instructions, there's all sorts of spelling mistakes in them. (as I just edited my post to fix a spelling mistake)



I'd like to try the USS out, but it costs about the same as a weekend on the track, and the track time is going to win that battle for me.

 

If ya gotta choose - that's a tough one.

Until I got my fill of track days, I think I'd wait a bit for the USS, too.

 

But you can't compare real life experiences with a seat-of-the-pants opinion. By stating it "feels" better you are giving an opinion, not a fact. And unfortunately most people will give positive feedbacks for items that are hard to prove actually work. They will have a certain bias to get approval for their purchase. This is simple human behavior. It is also very hard to admit that you may have made a mistake on a purchase, especially one that may be hard to prove actually didn't work as advertised. There have been studies done to prove this. One of the more recent studies was done to show how easy it is to con people who need work done on there cars. The shop told folks that something needed done to help the car run better and after doing nothing, the majority of folks claimed that the car actually ran better. I am not debating whether or not the product actually works. But to claim that all that is needed is positive feedback is misleading.

 

How would you measure it then? This is not really a measureable mode unless you hook up some frame rig and then try to manually flex the frame. Even if that was done, most people here would argue it.

People on this forum just like to argue over nothing.

 

Actually there's just such a test. About ten years back the four-wheel drive crowd developed a test of suspension and chassis articulation which involved driving one side of thier vehicle up a ramp of a set angle and dividing the distance travled by the vehicle wheel-base. Using a test such as this before and after the installation would give an accurate test of any increased chassis bracing.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=ramp+travel+index

 

I don't think that a test of this nature would work. The MINI is tight as it is and that test is designed to test 4 wheel drive suspension which is more about bending than rigidity. Although you might be able to modify it a bit.

If I jack up my MINI using the the suspension frame, it doesn't take much to get the other tire off the ground.

 

True so it may be a difference of milimeters, but it's the only way to really test a reduction in flex accurately and cheaply. You couldn't use the 20 degree ramps they use but the alternative way of using a fork lift and equation would work.

 

20 degree becomes 2 degrees...

Actually if you think about it, what they are bracing is the hump that runs down the center of the car. This would be a source or flex as an arch will flex more than flat metal. So "in theory" the USS is really doing something by reinforcing an area that is prone to flex. This is how I justify it's abilities.

As for empirical data, we would have to have a test rig of some sort...

FWIW, I totally agree that empirical data would quell this argument.

 

As I said in a earlier post

My best lap time at the big track at Willow Springs up to that point was a 143.2. At the time the weak part of my program was the motor so I felt that time was OK. My car had been in this configuration for close to 18 months so I was very familiar with the feel and capabilities of the setup. About 2 months after the event where I as able to put down the 143.2 I went back with the USS installed. There were no engine mods done during that time , the same Toyo Ra 1's were used and my best time on the day was a 141.4. More importantly I did not feel I was as close to the " edge " as I did turing the slower time .

Aren't these the type of numbers you look for when judging a suspension component ? Ask any track rat if they would spend $ 1,000 per second in lowering their absolute personal bests and the answer should be a resounding YES . This was 1/3 of the cost and almost 2 seconds off my PB. It is a bargin any way you look at it .

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

I totally get that as well, but I think many are looking for empirical data (not that most would actually know what they were looking at) compared to simple lap times.

As I pointed out, it makes total sense to brace the section of the frame that is probably very prone to flexing due to build so you will get no argument there. Not being a track rat, I don't know what they would think, but I do know that we have some very twisty roads here in Germany and I would love to be able to hug them a little better.

 

So, let me ask this:

What next?

I have a pretty stock '06 MCS. I have an Alta 15% pulley, and now a USS. I tend to drive fast on the autobahn (120-140 mph), and tend to go looking for curves when I'm just out for a drive (Black Forest, and so on).

For all of you USS users out there, what would you recommend I consider a the next logical step to build on what I have now? I'm not interested in sounds & consemtics; I'm interested in solid driving performance under what are my normal driving conditions. I'm not chasing after a 240 hp car. I don't autocross, but I will be heading to some of the local rings in the coming year for some adventure track time (to say I did it, not to race or improve racing skills).

Again, it's about building on and complimenting what I have, which is this case is the USS and not much else.

Ideas?

 

I have no doubts about the ability of the USS but I do like tha idea of conclusive measureable gains. Lap times have too many outside variables that can affect them, track temp., tire condition, even driver experience. A gain of 2 seconds per lap is a little large to be attributed solely to the USS, I'm sure there was an element of the driver being better too.
Standards of testing seem to be a big point of contention on here. The MINI aftermarket is still so relatively young that there hasn't been much independant verification of performance gains done and the verification that has been done gets scrutinized.

 

Given my experience with MINI's on the autobahn I'd have to say a brake upgrade might not be a bad next modification. You actually use your car at high enough speeds that better pads, stainless steel lines, and high-temp brake fluid would be a good investment. Also, if you haven't done so yet, lighter wheels and a set of summer tires will make a world of difference.

 

I'd agree on the brakes. I nice nig brake kit will do wonders for your stopping power.

 

Yeah. Brakes for the autobahn - maybe - but the stock brakes are pretty good until they get too hot - which isn't likely to happen unless you're braking A LOT (too much?) on the autobahn - brakes seem to be more necessary when you mix high speed aggressive driving AND repeated braking cycles - like on the track...

For handling on the twisties - definitely a 19mm adjustable rear swaybar. Great bang for the buck, and a self-install. Will make Tess rotate even better around the corners than the USS alone...

 

I get this - I really do....

but 96%??? Of a sample where many more than 4% would know better???

If, let's say, 70% said "it's great" and 30% said "not so much"... maybe you can argue that's pride of ownership talking. But 96%?

At a 96% positive buttoflexometer rating, I'm comfortable shifting the burden of proof onto the critics. And I think most rational people would... And the sample that "voted" above includes a wide variety of car setups and driving styles with pretty much only three things in common - the MINI, the USS, and aggressive cornering.

 

He probably does 2% on the Autobahn.... Good brakes for the twisties... Kids in the back yelling "go faster daddy!"

On and Abu, you might want fund a vist from me to help you.

 

I think everyone realizes that many mods (and specially suspension mods) are hard to quantify with hard data. That's why many of us will read through some of these threads to research what others' impressions of a product are. We all realize that these are the opinions of happy owners (who may be trying to justify their own purchase) and unhappy ones (who may have an axe to grind and tend to write in more than satisfied customers).

But these opinions are not without any merit just because one can't correlate a suspension mod to an hp increase or dyno chart. Afterall, the same people who are all over this thread mocking others for relying on the "butt-dyno" or how the car feels, may have just described their own full suspension (in response to a specific question about what difference a full set-up would make) the day before as:
Unfortunately, for these types of mods, a potential customer often has to look for the general community concensus -- because that may be all that's available. Point out once that you tried it and didn't like it (or felt it didn't do anything for you) and move on -- but there's no need to insult 21 or 22 others who are happy with a product by repeatedly stating that they're naive customers trying to justify their purchase with no hard data -- I could do the same on practically every thread about suspension upgrades, engine dampeners, etc. . .

By the way, this is not a comment on this product (as I can't speak from experience: I'm in the process of installing my own USS -- anyone have an extra one of the supplied drill bits? I bought used and don't have that).

 

For abuzavi's next mods, I'd suggest a) stiffer rear sway bar, and b) urethane in the lower-rear "torque-mount" engine mount.

The latter removes the "lurch" when you take your foot off the gas and the lag when you accelerate, and makes the car much more controllable with the throttle. The trade-off is that there is more engine vibration in the car at idle.

 

+1 more on the rear sway as the next mod -- also may want to start looking into intake / exhaust mods . . . these are proven improvements (not just in sound), which will work well in conjunction with the 15% pulley, even if you're not chasing the 240hp -- plus thanks to this thread, you know which exhaust systems to avoid as problematic with the USS

 

I'd do a lot of things before I changed brakes for the twisties... (and, in fact, I have)...

Pads - yeah, maybe. BBK? IMHO overkill.

I drove the Dragon, hard, multiple runs, with about 650lbs of passenger and gear in an already heavier cabrio - with stock brakes and Hawk ceramic pads, and had NO PROBLEMS with brake power, control, or fade. I plan to go to SS lines, brass bushings, and Motul just for a little more firmness at the pedal and peace 'o mind... but I'm not convinced you need a BBK just for the twisties... the track is a different matter...

 

Please remember I am not debating the merits of the USS. I personally feel it has some effect on the body of our MINI's. I was just discussing the foibles of human nature. And in this case the natural bias most folks will have when comparing the before and after effects of a mod.

 

It is also very hard to admit that you may have made a mistake on a purchase, especially one that may be hard to prove actually didn't work as advertised.

This is why I won't put all of my faith in the posts here. The numbers you quoted are a very small percentage of units sold.