Hello,

I was just wondering how camber plates effect the ride? From what I hear it kills the ride, if this is so why does it do this? Iam very interested because that just sounds stupid to me. Also I was wondering what are the reviews like on the H-Sport camber plates? Please enlighten me on this topic

Thanks for your help,
Jm

 

I had the same concerns, as I use my MCS as a daily driver on some very rough roads. The compormise that has worked for me was to install the "fixed" negative camber plates from Ireland Engineering. It's simply a modified factory strut bearing, adapted to a plate that provides -1.25 negative front camber at the stock ride height. My car lowered via H-Sport springs (since replaced with Bilstein PSS9s) ended up at a -2.0 degrees. Great solution and cheap at $150.


Cheers,

 

Just how would camber plates "destroy the ride"? The top of the struts are mounted solidly to the unibody. Camber plates are solid plates that mount between the top of the struts and the unibody. Whether or not you've got camber plates the struts are mounted solidly.

Now, if you mounted your struts to, oh, say a half inch thick plate made of tofu, that would likely change the ride characteristics significantly. And briefly.

If you want to be able to change your front camber, use the camber plates. If you don't, then don't. I couldn't tell that my camber plates made any diffence in ride quality. Unless you consider the ability to actually shift your internal organs from left to right while cornering as ride quality. In that case it makes a huge difference.

 

Wow, sounds good Mark.

Maybe we will see you at LRP next week. I'm in, but not so sure I can make it.

 

Most camber plates do chang ride quality as they have no more rubber bushings (as the stock ones do) You will feel the road a bit nore and when you hit those jaring bumps, you'll be reminded that you got camber plates!

 

I have the K-MAC race plates (no poly) and I could not tell the difference in ride or noise but it could just be overwhelmed by my SuperTrapp exhaust. Similar plates on my other car made no noticeable increase in noise or ride and that had a fairly quiet exhaust. I do understand that camber plates have made a difference in noise and ride for some though.

 

Please send us some pictures of the fixed camber plate and tell us what the instalation was like.

Thanks
Wes

 

I decided on the fixed plates from Ireland Engineering, I like the idea of it being a modified OEM plate, plus its not a very aggressive camber so the tires wont dissappear faster

Jm

PS. Thanks for all the info...

 

Front camber plates replace the stock ones and allow for adjustable or fixed front camber in excess of the stock -0.1 to -0.9 degrees usually found.

A fixed -1.25 degrees at stock height or -2.0 with H-sport springs would be adequate in the amount of negative camber to assist for track or autocross since anything more negative than stock settings is a plus- for handling and for tire wear when on the track or when cornering at higher speeds.

However a fixed camber plate does not allow for if your right and left suspension is not the same. It is very common for right and left sides to be off by quite a bit- from road wear and differences in each MINI. So with a fixed plate you get what you get albeit more negative than stock.

A fully adjustable camber plate allows you to put the camber where you want it to be. However once installed you should expect that the ride height in the front can be increased from 4 to 9mm depending on the plates used due to the thickness of the camber plate itself. Also the minimum camber you can get once the plate is installed is at about -0.8 so at the more negative range of stock settings- you will not be able to get back to -0.5 degrees commonly found in most stock and lowered MINIs.

For street use- you will not normally need front camber plates. At autocross and on the track it will help. Negative front camber settings are a compromise: More negative helps with cornering and using more of your competition tires but too negative a setting hinders straightline acceleration and braking. Normally between -2.0 and -2.3 degrees tends to work OK. A dedicated track MINI can have more negative settings in the front. Same goes for the rear camber- about -1.5 to -1.6 usually works. Stock range is roughly -1.0 to -2.0 degrees.

So do adjustable front camber plates result in a rougher ride? No.
Only if you set the front camber to more negative than about -1.0 degrees, otherwise you should be fine. Rear camber setting needs to be in the stock range and your toe settings need to be roughly in the stock range for maximum ride smoothness. Runflats will ride rougher and so will lower profile tires like 40 series or 35 series. Your results may vary.

 

I am strongly considering the fixed Irelands because they use a stock style rubber bushing (doughnut) at the top instead of a poly or metal bearing. I would prefer the adjustability, but am not aware of an adjustable plate that uses a rubber bushing.
I have had Carrera and Ground Control plates on two previus street/track cars and they both ruined the street ride. Both of those were race style bearings. The Web and RDR seam the prefered adjustables and I belive they are both poly (instaed of rubber). Please correct me if I am wrong. Of course the price on the Irelands is nice also.
I would like to see a picture and instaltion details if someone can supply them.
Thanks
Wes

 

I love the idea of a fixed plate. That said, corner weighting becomes sort of useless, no, impossible, with fixed plates. Compromises abound!

 

Morefun had his car corner balanced with no problems. Michael, I don't see that you need to have adjustable camber to corner balance a car.
.... I'm listening .....

Mark, I've been spying on you .... Had a nice talk with Mike today. My first time there. WHAT A PLAY LAND!

 

Front camber plates only adjust for front camber- either fixed and not adjustable but more negative than stock or fully adjustable within the range of it's design.

Corner weighing has to do with ride height when using a coilover upgrade kit - some allow for adjusting the height of the suspension at all four wheels which allows one to use car scales to determine the right amount of height to have at each corner to balance the car on diagonals- Right front and left rear weights to equal left front and right rear weights.

This way the car handles equally well turning right or left- it's balanced. This is with the driver in the car and fluids topped off full and race ready.

Adding a coilover kit with no front camber plates would allow for corner balancing but you would lack adjustment of front camber. Alignment settings are done after the car is balanced as a final step.

 

Adding to what Minihune already wrote; when height is adjusted, camber and tow move. To what degree - no punn - depends upon the car. I guess I offered this info because corner weighting is considered a fine adjustemnt in any set-up. if you are concerned with how the car handles right to left insofar as weight transfer is concerned, then I would say that camber and tow are equally important. It is a forward and backward set-up relationship; corner weighting affects camber and tow, camber affects corner weighting - because camber can affect height in the extreme.


Onasled, I only offrer this info to be helpful, as I think you know. I'm not saying one must follow my advise, only, that one must be aware of what one is giving up. I may buy the PSS9 system and the fixed strut bearings. But my spring/damper purchase in this case is based upon spring and damper qualities more than adjustability. You are a prolific track guy - a compliment - I wish I were out there with you. So, you may want to know that these minute changes may have an affect on your car's performance...and maybe not. But it's good info to have when really fine tuning your ride. Love your videos man!

 

I received a PM regarding my above post leaving me to believe I was not very clear???

Height adjustments affect camber and tow front and rear, no matter how little.

Extreme negative camber can potentially affect height, which will affect corner weighting if adjusted afterward.

Corner weighting is a fine adjustment. If we are concerned with fine tuning the suspension, then we should be concerned with all aspects no matter how little these appear. Another way of looking at this is, if we are not concerned with the potential changes corner weighting have on camber and tow, why corner weight? These fine adjustments are all within the same relative universe, unlike selecting spring rates - not fine tuning, different universe.

The Mini is apparently somewhat immune to camber changes up front even with a 1"-2" drop, according to this community. However, even if camber changes by a half degree with a 1"-2" drop, it should still be of some concern within the context of 'fine' tuning. Rear camber is apparently affected much more by lowering. And so, any height alterations here will alter camber, and camber alterations will affect corner balance as camber will indeed affect height. Camber curve characteristics determine just how much the height will change for a given degree of camber alteration; to an extreme, if you were able to tilt the top of the wheels in about one foot without any other changes, the Min's floorpan would probably come into contact with the ground. Simple geometry.

The process of corner weighting adjusts height unequally, so camber and tow will be affected unequally, and therefore need to be re-adjusted. If you then decide to alter camber after corner weighting, you run the risk of ruining your corner weighting results. You must then re-check the corner weights and then perhaps camber and tow again until you get the fine tuning as close as humanly possible or until time and patience run out. This is a backward and forward relationship. If, for example, you have decided that 1.50 degrees of negative camber up front is perfect, why wouldn't you make sure this adjustment is retained after raising or lowering one or two corners? If the front is not affected because the Mini is a tad immune to camber changes as I wrote, the rear camber will surely be affected by adjusting cross corners. If you raise the front driver's side in an effort to kick a tad more weight onto the rear passenger wheel, the rear passenger ride height is lowered which will affect the camber setting. I've seen a few folks become absolutely frustrated after corner weighting because they thought they ahd gone thru the ideal procedure only to find that the car was squirrly in the braking zone. Why? Well, left to right weights might have been ideal, but they forgot to re-check camber and tow after corner weighting the car and all four corners were off... Think about the often used four legged chair analogy (what other kind is there?) with two diagonal legs longer than the others. Say all the camber and tow settings on this chair were set. Raising or lowering two diagonal sets to achieve propoer weight distribution will affect all camber and tow settings. Now, suppose you corner weight first (proper) and then adjust camber and tow. Depending upon the suspension design, camber will affect height. Gotta go back and check the weights again. The changes in this relationship become smaller and smaller but I suggest checking corner weights at least once after aligning the car.

The changes may be minimal, but as I wrote earlier, you should at least understand a relationship exists so you can decide what to do with the information. The differences may not mean anything to some, while they may mean a second per lap to others, and a second per lap is a big deal.

I wrote about roll couple a week or two ago. My point was the same; know that a relationship exists between center of gravity and roll center and that a lowered car may actually roll more. We don't typically notice the effect because we've employed heavier springs. Weight tranfers with more force nonetheless. I'll add to the fire; camber changes affect MacPhearson strut roll center...the knee bones connected to the shin bone, the shin bones connected to the...

Rubber bushings and sloppy stock suspension systems may make some of this moot, but a few glasses of one's favorite elixir will no doubt unravel the silence...

I'm simply throwing this info out there for anyone to chew on. It's good stuff, it gets me excited and I love sharing and learning. I feel like I'm churning up dust though, so I'm tuning out (no punn) for a bit.


Michael