Suspension A few sway bar questions, track related
A few sway bar questions, track related
Would like to here from people who track their S often please.
Who has replaced the front sway bar and what are you doing with the rear setup if you have. What are the results of this mod?
If you run a 22mm rear with a stck front bar do you ever run in the stiffest setting on the track? How do you set up your rear bar and what is you thinking behind this setup
Thanks.
Who has replaced the front sway bar and what are you doing with the rear setup if you have. What are the results of this mod?
If you run a 22mm rear with a stck front bar do you ever run in the stiffest setting on the track? How do you set up your rear bar and what is you thinking behind this setup
Thanks.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
Onasled,
A note first. I don't mean appear condescending, but this is a helpful way to begin the swaybar discussion.
Sway bars control both responsiveness, and, balance. Either can be adjusted with or without affecting the other. For example, if you were to increase the size of the stock swaybars by say 35%, Your Mini's balance would remain the same, but it would be much more responsive to steering inputs...its stock traits would be amplified in other words.
If you wanted to increase rotation, you could simply increase the size of the rear swaybar by say 35%, or reduce the size of the front bar by say 35%. Reducing the size of the front bar by 35% will in theory yield as much rotation as increasing the size of the rear bar by 35%. I write in theory because although the balance may appear on paper to be the same, a smaller front bar in this scenario will slow down responsiveness. So, one way to achieving a more balanced ride without adding to twitchyness is to work backward from the norm. Of course, the car will lean more too requiring some other things to be done so that ultimate grip isn't affected.
I think it is important to bring the above example up because swaybar tuning is much more complex than most folks think it is - you actually have more options!
Comments below written without consideration for spring/damping/geometry qualities(which you cannot do in practice) For the sake of the below discussion - large rear bar = 22mm, small rear bar = 19mm, both 3 position adjustable.
For tracks (non-autoxing) with lots of tight turns and no long sweeping highspeed turns; Stock front bar with a bigger rear bar set at soft or middle settings.
For tracks with only highspeed sweepers; smaller front bar with smaller rear bar set at soft or middle setting.
For tracks with an equal combination of highspeed and lowspeed turns; Stock front bar with smaller rear bar set at full hard or larger bar set at full soft. Obviously the hardest to tune for.
Having a car that is too responsive on a track with highspeed turns can cuase lots of instability or control problems at high speeds...you will sweat a lot. Having a car that is too stable on a track with tight turns will cause you to swear a lot...actually, you may swear a lot in either case. But in the first case it will be from fear and in the second from anger.
The other note I would like to make in closing is that the size and adjustability of sway bars should be the last thing you do; I've written before that springs come first, dampers second and then swaybar choices. Springs define the character of the car and are the work horse of the suspension system. Dampers need to control spring rates and therefore come next in the selection process. Swaybars and geometry, and tire pressure should be used to fine tune handling characteristics. These all overlap by the way making absolutes impossible.
Basically, your car should be easy to drive. Bigger and stiffer may be better in some places...but not always on a track or on the road. The Mini is a great car. However, no amount of suspension tuning is going to overcome a 63% weight bias over the front wheels...the Mini has limitations that cannot be overcome with a "bigger and stiffer is better" attitude. Make the car easy to drive so that you can be consistent.
Not sure if this helped...had lots of coffee today.
Michael
PS softer springs/dampers/swaybars/narrower tires telegraph loss of traction with some warning. The stiffer the springs/dampers/swaybarsand tires, the less warning you will get. You may have more ulimate grip with a stiffer set-up, but if the car doesn't talk to you you're in trouble when things go wrong...and they can go wrong very quickly with a very stiff set-up.
A note first. I don't mean appear condescending, but this is a helpful way to begin the swaybar discussion.
Sway bars control both responsiveness, and, balance. Either can be adjusted with or without affecting the other. For example, if you were to increase the size of the stock swaybars by say 35%, Your Mini's balance would remain the same, but it would be much more responsive to steering inputs...its stock traits would be amplified in other words.
If you wanted to increase rotation, you could simply increase the size of the rear swaybar by say 35%, or reduce the size of the front bar by say 35%. Reducing the size of the front bar by 35% will in theory yield as much rotation as increasing the size of the rear bar by 35%. I write in theory because although the balance may appear on paper to be the same, a smaller front bar in this scenario will slow down responsiveness. So, one way to achieving a more balanced ride without adding to twitchyness is to work backward from the norm. Of course, the car will lean more too requiring some other things to be done so that ultimate grip isn't affected.
I think it is important to bring the above example up because swaybar tuning is much more complex than most folks think it is - you actually have more options!
Comments below written without consideration for spring/damping/geometry qualities(which you cannot do in practice) For the sake of the below discussion - large rear bar = 22mm, small rear bar = 19mm, both 3 position adjustable.
For tracks (non-autoxing) with lots of tight turns and no long sweeping highspeed turns; Stock front bar with a bigger rear bar set at soft or middle settings.
For tracks with only highspeed sweepers; smaller front bar with smaller rear bar set at soft or middle setting.
For tracks with an equal combination of highspeed and lowspeed turns; Stock front bar with smaller rear bar set at full hard or larger bar set at full soft. Obviously the hardest to tune for.
Having a car that is too responsive on a track with highspeed turns can cuase lots of instability or control problems at high speeds...you will sweat a lot. Having a car that is too stable on a track with tight turns will cause you to swear a lot...actually, you may swear a lot in either case. But in the first case it will be from fear and in the second from anger.
The other note I would like to make in closing is that the size and adjustability of sway bars should be the last thing you do; I've written before that springs come first, dampers second and then swaybar choices. Springs define the character of the car and are the work horse of the suspension system. Dampers need to control spring rates and therefore come next in the selection process. Swaybars and geometry, and tire pressure should be used to fine tune handling characteristics. These all overlap by the way making absolutes impossible.
Basically, your car should be easy to drive. Bigger and stiffer may be better in some places...but not always on a track or on the road. The Mini is a great car. However, no amount of suspension tuning is going to overcome a 63% weight bias over the front wheels...the Mini has limitations that cannot be overcome with a "bigger and stiffer is better" attitude. Make the car easy to drive so that you can be consistent.
Not sure if this helped...had lots of coffee today.
Michael
PS softer springs/dampers/swaybars/narrower tires telegraph loss of traction with some warning. The stiffer the springs/dampers/swaybarsand tires, the less warning you will get. You may have more ulimate grip with a stiffer set-up, but if the car doesn't talk to you you're in trouble when things go wrong...and they can go wrong very quickly with a very stiff set-up.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
I've had lots of time to make lots of accidents/mistakes.
One more point I should make, and forgot; we tend to use larger rear swaybars to try to overcome understeer tendencies in the Mini. This trait is partly due to a front wheel drive layout, and, lots of weight over the front end. The reason I suggest a conservative approach to larger rear bars for any front driver on a track with lots of highspeed turns is due to how these affect roll stiffness. Ever see a front driver on an autox course lift its rear wheel? Well imagine this sort of thing happening while negotiating a long 110-130mph sweeper with a closing radius; as the bar begins to work harder, it actually begins to lift the rear wheel off the ground. And, the rear wheel does not have to come completely off the ground for a nasty, life threatening spin to take place. This is one reason I also do not like trail braking in a front driver. Rear roll stiffness can be very helpful, but one must decide upon where he or she is driving most of the time. An autox set-up will not ever work on a track with long sweeping turns.
As an aside, the rear roll stiffness concern is only exaserbated by installing larger rear brakes on this car - don't do it. Definately on the front if you like, but then, add tires with a wider footprint. Oh another aside; the word wider is deliberate; a 215/40/17 has no mre rubber on the road than say a 205/45/17 - all else equal. The shape of the contact patch changes; it shrinks front to back and gets wider left to right for the 215/40/17. Bigger brakes need a wider contact patch to leverage the force of the bigger brakes.
Have fun, glad you let me chime in.
...I am, however, rather helpless with engines.
Michael
One more point I should make, and forgot; we tend to use larger rear swaybars to try to overcome understeer tendencies in the Mini. This trait is partly due to a front wheel drive layout, and, lots of weight over the front end. The reason I suggest a conservative approach to larger rear bars for any front driver on a track with lots of highspeed turns is due to how these affect roll stiffness. Ever see a front driver on an autox course lift its rear wheel? Well imagine this sort of thing happening while negotiating a long 110-130mph sweeper with a closing radius; as the bar begins to work harder, it actually begins to lift the rear wheel off the ground. And, the rear wheel does not have to come completely off the ground for a nasty, life threatening spin to take place. This is one reason I also do not like trail braking in a front driver. Rear roll stiffness can be very helpful, but one must decide upon where he or she is driving most of the time. An autox set-up will not ever work on a track with long sweeping turns.
As an aside, the rear roll stiffness concern is only exaserbated by installing larger rear brakes on this car - don't do it. Definately on the front if you like, but then, add tires with a wider footprint. Oh another aside; the word wider is deliberate; a 215/40/17 has no mre rubber on the road than say a 205/45/17 - all else equal. The shape of the contact patch changes; it shrinks front to back and gets wider left to right for the 215/40/17. Bigger brakes need a wider contact patch to leverage the force of the bigger brakes.
Have fun, glad you let me chime in.
...I am, however, rather helpless with engines.
Michael
Originally Posted by onasled
Thanks Michael, good stuff.
Was wondering what your background is with this knowledge? You seem to have a good amount of background when it comes to suspension.
Thanks again.
Was wondering what your background is with this knowledge? You seem to have a good amount of background when it comes to suspension.
Thanks again.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
From: Irvine, California
Along the same lines, does anyone have an opinion about the two settings on the ALTA 22mm bar with a stock suspension? I am thinking about putting one on before I go to Buttonwillow June 3rd, but I don't want to induce snap oversteer in some of the more high-speed turns (i.e. - Talladega/Riverside/whatever they call it).
Have people experienced trailing throttle or snap oversteer with the ALTA 22mm bar set on the softest setting?
Have people experienced trailing throttle or snap oversteer with the ALTA 22mm bar set on the softest setting?
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4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 1
From: Sammamish, WA
All,
A very informative discussion that has given me pause for thought.
I am concerned about the potential contribution to excessive rear end roll stiffness from a couple of my suspension modifications. I do a limited amount of track days and no autocrossing. First, I replaced my rear stabilizer arms with ALTA arm that have heim end links. There is little or no compliance with these arms. Also, I have replaced the stock rubber rear trailing arm bushings with fabricated mono-ball bushings. Again, less compliance, and a certain increase in roll stiffness. The car is solid and goes exactly where I point it without steering corrections on the street.
Any thoughts about what I may have done to myself?
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
A very informative discussion that has given me pause for thought.
I am concerned about the potential contribution to excessive rear end roll stiffness from a couple of my suspension modifications. I do a limited amount of track days and no autocrossing. First, I replaced my rear stabilizer arms with ALTA arm that have heim end links. There is little or no compliance with these arms. Also, I have replaced the stock rubber rear trailing arm bushings with fabricated mono-ball bushings. Again, less compliance, and a certain increase in roll stiffness. The car is solid and goes exactly where I point it without steering corrections on the street.
Any thoughts about what I may have done to myself?
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
I don't know the Mini yet, so this, as above, is from other experiences.
Harder bushings/hime joint bushings are tuff, their application for a road car is dubious. jlm has replaced the front control arm bushings in his car. I had a quick look at these - a simple lower wishbone with a front and rear bushing. The rear most bushing has lots of compliance and is probably designed that way to contribute to a relatively compliant ride. Any time I've replaced these bushings in past cars I've noticed that the rear most bushing alters steering input to a far greater degree than the front bushing. Though it makes some sense to replace the front bushing too, it has in the past, offered less reward and more harshness. So if I were playing up front I would probably replace only the rear bushing in the front lower front control arm. Each car felt like I added an LSD after these bushings were replaced; the tires really bite and point where intended without any slop in the geometry. Nice!
I would feel comfortable, then, performing the same work in the back. So I guess my feeling is perform the same basic bushing replacements front and rear to achieve a little more balance in suspension compliance. I don't think you've done anything wrong, you're just not finished
My last car had hard rubber, poly and delrin bushings everywhere along with fairly heavy spring rates. The ride was punishing on New York roads. I removed the poly bushings from both front and rear spring perches, and from the rear lower control arms. The ride was much more acceptable.
I would replace stock swaybar bushings with either delrin or poly...poly can get a bit noisy if not libricated once or twice a year, oh well.
The steering rack can benefit from poly bushings as well, but this will transmit lots of grainyness (sp?) thru the steering wheel as well. I wouldn't find value replacing the steering rack bushings in a Mini driven on the street; it already has a very quick steering ratio and is quite accurate.
Poly or hard rubber engine mounts can add a tremendous amount of vibration and noise into the passenger cabin - especially those connected to the fire wall! Be very careful here or you'll need a set of ear plugs, really.
If I were replacing bushings I would personally replace; rear most bushing in lower front control arm, rear control arms, swaybar and swaybar end links. you may find that you can get away with a slightly smalle bar if you replace these bushings - there is less compliance in the bushings allowing the bar to work more effectively.
Helpful???
Michael
Harder bushings/hime joint bushings are tuff, their application for a road car is dubious. jlm has replaced the front control arm bushings in his car. I had a quick look at these - a simple lower wishbone with a front and rear bushing. The rear most bushing has lots of compliance and is probably designed that way to contribute to a relatively compliant ride. Any time I've replaced these bushings in past cars I've noticed that the rear most bushing alters steering input to a far greater degree than the front bushing. Though it makes some sense to replace the front bushing too, it has in the past, offered less reward and more harshness. So if I were playing up front I would probably replace only the rear bushing in the front lower front control arm. Each car felt like I added an LSD after these bushings were replaced; the tires really bite and point where intended without any slop in the geometry. Nice!
I would feel comfortable, then, performing the same work in the back. So I guess my feeling is perform the same basic bushing replacements front and rear to achieve a little more balance in suspension compliance. I don't think you've done anything wrong, you're just not finished
My last car had hard rubber, poly and delrin bushings everywhere along with fairly heavy spring rates. The ride was punishing on New York roads. I removed the poly bushings from both front and rear spring perches, and from the rear lower control arms. The ride was much more acceptable.
I would replace stock swaybar bushings with either delrin or poly...poly can get a bit noisy if not libricated once or twice a year, oh well.
The steering rack can benefit from poly bushings as well, but this will transmit lots of grainyness (sp?) thru the steering wheel as well. I wouldn't find value replacing the steering rack bushings in a Mini driven on the street; it already has a very quick steering ratio and is quite accurate.
Poly or hard rubber engine mounts can add a tremendous amount of vibration and noise into the passenger cabin - especially those connected to the fire wall! Be very careful here or you'll need a set of ear plugs, really.
If I were replacing bushings I would personally replace; rear most bushing in lower front control arm, rear control arms, swaybar and swaybar end links. you may find that you can get away with a slightly smalle bar if you replace these bushings - there is less compliance in the bushings allowing the bar to work more effectively.
Helpful???
Michael
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 109
Likes: 2
From: work
Originally Posted by Strom
Along the same lines, does anyone have an opinion about the two settings on the ALTA 22mm bar with a stock suspension? I am thinking about putting one on before I go to Buttonwillow June 3rd, but I don't want to induce snap oversteer in some of the more high-speed turns (i.e. - Talladega/Riverside/whatever they call it).
Have people experienced trailing throttle or snap oversteer with the ALTA 22mm bar set on the softest setting?
Have people experienced trailing throttle or snap oversteer with the ALTA 22mm bar set on the softest setting?
Besides, I thought lifting in those high-speed turns is a no-no anyway?
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 1
From: Sammamish, WA
Meb,
Thank you for the suggestions. Completely agree with your evaluation of the S&M character of an underly compliant suspension set up. Been there, done that.
My MINI has H&R springs all the way around which offer an increased but not excessive spring rate. Nice for managing roll and pitch and good for ride comfort. Did change the rear bar to the Madness "2 holer" set at the softest setting as suggested by other posters. With the mono-ball rear trailing arm bushing and ALTA control arms, oh, and the mono-ball upper strut mount I feel that the ride is still quite acceptable in Seattle. Don't know what I'd say if I drove on the Winter ravaged roads in your area. So much of how well the suspension modifications are tolerated does depend on local conditions.
John and I have similar front end modifications. I am using a set of his Delrin mono-ball camber/caster plates and a Delrin front compliance bushing. I agree that the "bite" sure seems better, but, I do have a vivid imagination. The steering rack doesn't offer many opportunites. The passenger side of the rack is anchored thru a rubber bushing, and that bushing is next on my "hit" list.
Have installed Delrin bushings in the large top and bottom engine stabilizers and poly inserts in the small ends. Feel that the torque steer is a bit less. Had to compromise, as you suggested, so I didn't have to wear ear plugs and so the CD player wouldn't jump music tracks with acceleration. Compromises, compromises.
Most of my suspension compliance seems to be from the tires, the bottom rubber bushings in the rear strut and my attempts to drive smoothly.
Don't feel that I lost anything until I went overboard with the engine mounts and had to retain some compliance there. Am anxious to take the car out on the road circuit in a couple of days and make sure that the setup is stable and safe. Can only hope.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
Thank you for the suggestions. Completely agree with your evaluation of the S&M character of an underly compliant suspension set up. Been there, done that.
My MINI has H&R springs all the way around which offer an increased but not excessive spring rate. Nice for managing roll and pitch and good for ride comfort. Did change the rear bar to the Madness "2 holer" set at the softest setting as suggested by other posters. With the mono-ball rear trailing arm bushing and ALTA control arms, oh, and the mono-ball upper strut mount I feel that the ride is still quite acceptable in Seattle. Don't know what I'd say if I drove on the Winter ravaged roads in your area. So much of how well the suspension modifications are tolerated does depend on local conditions.
John and I have similar front end modifications. I am using a set of his Delrin mono-ball camber/caster plates and a Delrin front compliance bushing. I agree that the "bite" sure seems better, but, I do have a vivid imagination. The steering rack doesn't offer many opportunites. The passenger side of the rack is anchored thru a rubber bushing, and that bushing is next on my "hit" list.
Have installed Delrin bushings in the large top and bottom engine stabilizers and poly inserts in the small ends. Feel that the torque steer is a bit less. Had to compromise, as you suggested, so I didn't have to wear ear plugs and so the CD player wouldn't jump music tracks with acceleration. Compromises, compromises.
Most of my suspension compliance seems to be from the tires, the bottom rubber bushings in the rear strut and my attempts to drive smoothly.
Don't feel that I lost anything until I went overboard with the engine mounts and had to retain some compliance there. Am anxious to take the car out on the road circuit in a couple of days and make sure that the setup is stable and safe. Can only hope.
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
consider 19mm
Many on the board have opined that you do not need anything greater than a 19mm rear sway bar for street & some auto/track time. I took their advise and installed a 19MM bar and am very pleased with the results. The bar had 3 hole options and I ended up going to the middle one. The car is more neutral, feels that it leans less and yet feels stable (i.e. non-twichy).
Another thing perhaps to consider is that there have been numerous posts of people discussing noises or rubbing after installing a sway bar. Some have even cut away a bit to "fit" the bar.So all bars are not created equal.
I've had the bar on now for a month or so and had no negative effects such as noise or rubbing.
BahamaBart
Another thing perhaps to consider is that there have been numerous posts of people discussing noises or rubbing after installing a sway bar. Some have even cut away a bit to "fit" the bar.So all bars are not created equal.
I've had the bar on now for a month or so and had no negative effects such as noise or rubbing.
BahamaBart
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Fairfax, VA
Don't forget your sway bar links. I drove The Dragon a few times last weekend in my 05 MCS with a Stage 3 performance package and a Madness 3-hole rear bar set at stiffest setting (and I have upper and lower Madness control arms). Just from driving, no collisions with anything, I bent the link on the driver's side. That surprised me enough to cause me to start a separate thread. I haven't checked the springs yet for signs of rubbing against the sway bar, but I will today. When I do, I'll take a pic of the bent link and post it.
Thanks for the replies everyone, BUT, please remember that I want to keep this to 'On the tack' experience. Not to concerned about on the street ride quality here.
Meb has some great points, but as he says, he hasn't the time/experience in the MCS when it comes to these setups and he is using his experiences from other cars as I understand it.
I personally am running the H-sport 22 rear bar at the middle hole and find it to be very fast on the track, but my track time is limited. I also use the Alta control arms which I like a whole bunch.
Would still like to hear from some that have replaced there front bar and have time with it on the track.
Good stuff here and I hope the thread continues.
Meb has some great points, but as he says, he hasn't the time/experience in the MCS when it comes to these setups and he is using his experiences from other cars as I understand it.
I personally am running the H-sport 22 rear bar at the middle hole and find it to be very fast on the track, but my track time is limited. I also use the Alta control arms which I like a whole bunch.
Would still like to hear from some that have replaced there front bar and have time with it on the track.
Good stuff here and I hope the thread continues.
Originally Posted by willimini
Don't forget your sway bar links. I drove The Dragon a few times last weekend in my 05 MCS with a Stage 3 performance package and a Madness 3-hole rear bar set at stiffest setting (and I have upper and lower Madness control arms). Just from driving, no collisions with anything, I bent the link on the driver's side. That surprised me enough to cause me to start a separate thread. I haven't checked the springs yet for signs of rubbing against the sway bar, but I will today. When I do, I'll take a pic of the bent link and post it.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 529
Likes: 0
From: Irvine, California
Originally Posted by ditc
I have the 25mm (hollow) H-Sport comp bar at the softest setting with stock suspension, but regardless of which one you have as a general rule I would always start it at the softest setting and play with it before you hit the track. That said, yes, you will have to sharpen your reflexes a little since you'll start to oversteer sooner than stock when you lift..exactly how much depends on a bunch of other variables..in my experience the softest setting has produced a very nice neutral balance around most medium-speed curves.
Besides, I thought lifting in those high-speed turns is a no-no anyway?
Besides, I thought lifting in those high-speed turns is a no-no anyway?
The trailing throttle oversteer would be on slower turns, but that's not as much of a concern to me as the conditions in a high-speed turn.
I was just wondering how extensively the ALTA bar changes the characteristics of the car. Does anyone have numbers comparing the stiffness of the ALTA bar to others? I haven't seen numbers on the ALTA bar specifically.
I think I am going to go to the next track event completely stock before I change anything. I know I'll get understeer, but I just don't want to make any drastic changes that I will regret.
2nd Gear
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 125
Likes: 0
From: Fairfax, VA
Randy Webb guessed right about my sway bar hitting my spring. I've attached a three-part pic. The left photo shows my sway bar with the spring behind, the center photo zooms in on the top two paint chips on the spring, and the right photo shows the bent link (for those of you who haven't seen one of these ugly things before). So clearance between the sway bar and the spring is a concern when you buy your bar. Maybe Meb or someone else can explain the physics of what happened when the link bent.
To onasled, the Stage 3 stuff on my car is all under the bonnet. It's head, cam, throttle body, pulley, cold air intake, chip, etc.
To onasled, the Stage 3 stuff on my car is all under the bonnet. It's head, cam, throttle body, pulley, cold air intake, chip, etc.
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
Onasled,
Thanks for letting me steal some of your thread here. I'll bow out for now...but I'll keep reading. When I finally get my Mini set up I'll pm you with my impressions.
Petrich,
Sounds like you are really having some fun, great!
Thanks again
michael
Thanks for letting me steal some of your thread here. I'll bow out for now...but I'll keep reading. When I finally get my Mini set up I'll pm you with my impressions.
Petrich,
Sounds like you are really having some fun, great!
Thanks again
michael
4th Gear
Joined: Dec 2002
Posts: 314
Likes: 1
From: Sammamish, WA
Dan,
The camber plates were made by John Milich "jlm" on NAM. I think that they are no longer in production. The Delrin "inserts" are bushing made by my local machine shop. I would take the offending part into them and they would press out the rubber bushing and machine a Delrin replacement. Definitely not home workshop projects.
What are your plans for track oriented suspension modifications?
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
The camber plates were made by John Milich "jlm" on NAM. I think that they are no longer in production. The Delrin "inserts" are bushing made by my local machine shop. I would take the offending part into them and they would press out the rubber bushing and machine a Delrin replacement. Definitely not home workshop projects.
What are your plans for track oriented suspension modifications?
Regards,
John Petrich in Seattle
4th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 550
Likes: 0
From: Portland Oregon
Petrich,
So far I have a Madness rear sway bar on the middle setting, H-Sport springs and rear lower camber links with the camber set at -1.5 deg.
I plan to try the softest setting on the rear bar at my next track day. At PIR there is a quick transition between turns 2 and 3 that always feels very "twitchy". I spun in this same spot after hitting some antifreeze that was on the track. This is my least favorate section of the track.
I have been thinking about adding front camber plates to help reduce the front tire wear. The main drawback with the plates I have looked at so far is that they raise the front of the car which I don't want to do. I like the stance just the way it is now.
Also I plan on adding a sport bar and racing harness at some point. I might build my own bar but it would be similar to the "Bones" bar. Still thinking about that.
A set of track tires and wheels are in the plans for next year after I get some more experience. Over all, the mini performs very well. The little bit it gives up on the straights is more than made up in the turns.
Dan
So far I have a Madness rear sway bar on the middle setting, H-Sport springs and rear lower camber links with the camber set at -1.5 deg.
I plan to try the softest setting on the rear bar at my next track day. At PIR there is a quick transition between turns 2 and 3 that always feels very "twitchy". I spun in this same spot after hitting some antifreeze that was on the track. This is my least favorate section of the track.
I have been thinking about adding front camber plates to help reduce the front tire wear. The main drawback with the plates I have looked at so far is that they raise the front of the car which I don't want to do. I like the stance just the way it is now.
Also I plan on adding a sport bar and racing harness at some point. I might build my own bar but it would be similar to the "Bones" bar. Still thinking about that.
A set of track tires and wheels are in the plans for next year after I get some more experience. Over all, the mini performs very well. The little bit it gives up on the straights is more than made up in the turns.
Dan
3rd Gear
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 243
Likes: 1
From: San Diego
I have had no track time with this bar.
My rear bar is the h-sport 22mm competition bar. I'm currently running the front bar on soft, and the rear bar in the middle - although for the last part of last season I ran both the front and rear on stiff on settings. With the front bar set to stiff I have noticed that the car has more grip coming into and out of corners - other MCS owners who have autoxed my car have made the same observation. The other thing I noticed is that my coilovers (PSS9s) seem to be more sensitive to adjustment with this setup and seem to work better with the rebound set softer than normal (for autox). With this set up it's easy to make the car rotate and/or spin on lift in the corner. When the front bar is on the softer setting the pss9s work better set slightly stiffer and lift throttle over steer is less sensitive to the rebound settings. Also, while with this setup I could make the inside rear wheel lift in the corner - it generally would not, unless I overcook the corner entry - I think reducing most of the rear wheel lift was a result of corner balancing the car .
I hope this makes sense. Most people told me that on a FWD car a stiffer front bar would mave the car push more - I have found that not to be the case. Understand that the 27mm h-sport front bar is 16% stiffer than stock on the soft setting and 27% stiffer on the firm setting. I'm sure that too stiff ARB's would be bad as well - The h-sport 22mm rear bar rates are much higher compared to stock.
I hope this info is somewhat helpful even though I have an autocross perspective instead of track experiance. Also, I have front camber plates (RDR), h-sport rear control arms, and a Quaife - I run slight front toe out, zero rear toe, -2 front camber, -.8 rear camber
David
5th Gear
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
Until recently I ran H&R springs, H-sport comp sway bars front and rear, H-sport rear control arms, Kumho 215/40-17 tires, Koni yellows.
Before installing the front bar I was running the rear bar in the middle setting. The car was very stiff and very balanced (thunderhill raceway). Upon installing the heavier front sway bar, there was a noticable increase in understeer; not a lot, mind you, but noticable. The next step would have been to stiffen the rear to see if it would return to it's more balanced state, something I never tried because I was happy with the overall setup, except for one thing and that was the overall grip performance mid-corner. A stiff setting in the rear would have done little to help that. Camber plates and stickier tires made more sense. For a small, light car, few cars will keep up in the tight stuff. However, without further changes, corner speed performance is mediocre at best.
The car is ultra stiff with this setup, predictable, and it's really fun to drive, very much like a go-cart. But at the limit it could use more side grip. Also, it may get old as a street setup due the stiffness and how low the car sits. It easily will lift a rear wheel over the littlest of bumps and driveways.
I removed the springs and front sway bar because my wife is driving it for now. I am willing to sell the stuff I removed from the car (front sway, H&R springs, and front strut bar.)
Phil
Before installing the front bar I was running the rear bar in the middle setting. The car was very stiff and very balanced (thunderhill raceway). Upon installing the heavier front sway bar, there was a noticable increase in understeer; not a lot, mind you, but noticable. The next step would have been to stiffen the rear to see if it would return to it's more balanced state, something I never tried because I was happy with the overall setup, except for one thing and that was the overall grip performance mid-corner. A stiff setting in the rear would have done little to help that. Camber plates and stickier tires made more sense. For a small, light car, few cars will keep up in the tight stuff. However, without further changes, corner speed performance is mediocre at best.
The car is ultra stiff with this setup, predictable, and it's really fun to drive, very much like a go-cart. But at the limit it could use more side grip. Also, it may get old as a street setup due the stiffness and how low the car sits. It easily will lift a rear wheel over the littlest of bumps and driveways.
I removed the springs and front sway bar because my wife is driving it for now. I am willing to sell the stuff I removed from the car (front sway, H&R springs, and front strut bar.)
Phil
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