Suspension Koni FSD and NM Engineering 33MM lowering springs
#1
03-16-2020, 08:58 PM
Koni FSD and NM Engineering 33MM lowering springs
Recently purchased a set of 33MM NM lowering springs and Koni FSDs that came as a kit. I have read mixed things about using these springs with this specific shock and am looking to gain some clarity if they can be used together or not. Let me know your thoughts!
#2
03-16-2020, 09:38 PM
6th Gear
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WayMotorWorks (03-18-2020)
#3
03-17-2020, 08:32 AM
i just purchased a set of bilstein b8’s. Do they require bumpstops w/ the use of the nm engineering springs? If so, do you use stock ones or cut them in half?
#4
03-17-2020, 09:48 PM
6th Gear
#5
03-18-2020, 04:28 AM
In all cases the setup was at OEM ride height, and the results were excellent.
The front strut on the B8 has internal bumpstops, the rear I'm less certain of.
I would not lower the car more than 15 mm however, for the following reasons:
1. the Mini needs more than 1.5" of compression travel even on a perfectly smooth road, just due to body roll when cornering
2. the roll center on the Mini front suspension drops dramatically as a response to lowering, due to the changed angle of the lower control arm, and this increases body roll
3. the angle of the lower control arm also makes significant changes in the jacking force applied to the chassis during cornering, which can go negative - in conjunction with body roll these effects can use all available compression travel
4. the sum of these effects often means that the car is contacting the bump stops rather than being supported by the springs - and the non-linear rate of the stops raises hell with weight transfer and can create unpredictable handling
5. on rough roads, the ride quality during cornering can suffer dramatically, and create rapid wear and/or failure of shock components
These behaviors are discussed here, as well as several other threads within NAM.
Cheers,
Charlie
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#7
05-01-2020, 11:45 AM
Don’t believe everything you read. I personally run this NM lowering spring and FSD together. I worked with an MM dealer and KONI directly. Because the spring is progressive and the shock has a somewhat soft dampening, The ride is great the valve on the shock is safe because the drop is not too crazy. And I cut my Bumpstop In half so the strut would not blow out. I have been running the combination for three years and I’ve been very happy. There is always a lot of opinions and messages posted about the different products. But I decided to try it anyway. And I’ve been a very happy customer with the responsiveness and ride quality. I do you believe however, that if I was running a linear spring and a lower drop, it would ride like crap.
Last edited by RYANR56; 05-01-2020 at 02:04 PM.
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rosvick (01-06-2022)
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#8
01-05-2022, 09:03 AM
Don’t believe everything you read. I personally run this NM lowering spring and FSD together. I worked with an MM dealer and KONI directly. Because the spring is progressive and the shock has a somewhat soft dampening, The ride is great the valve on the shock is safe because the drop is not too crazy. And I cut my Bumpstop In half so the strut would not blow out. I have been running the combination for three years and I’ve been very happy. There is always a lot of opinions and messages posted about the different products. But I decided to try it anyway. And I’ve been a very happy customer with the responsiveness and ride quality. I do you believe however, that if I was running a linear spring and a lower drop, it would ride like crap.
I asked Koni via email about the Special Active struts and lowering springs, and this is their reply:
"The lowering springs will not cause any additional wear or premature wear to the dampers, but what it will cause is the car to make more consistent contact with the bump stops and less the desirable ride quality. Which is why we do not recommend lowering springs with the Active dampers on the MINI Cooper. With the Special Active struts and shocks you want to keep from contacting the bump stops as much as possible to allow for the FSD module to function properly, and with the Cooper's already limited amount of suspension stroke, lowering the car has proven to reduce the effectiveness of the damping technology the Actives can provide. If you plan to lower the car, Koni's recommendation would be to pair the lowering springs with the Koni Sport Yellows."
So with that, please tell me RYANR56: With the bump stops cut according to NM's instructions, do you notice your car ever bottoming out and hitting the stops? How about if you have two people and a bunch of gear in the back? Or through aggressive cornering? If your car rides well and you don't hit the bump stops, the Special Active and NM combo might just be the perfect solution!
#9
01-05-2022, 09:25 AM
5th Gear
As a small addendum, 5x Racing makes a shortened bump stop kit. I'm running the set for Koni yellows, but they show a set for the FSDs. I have no idea how the FSD ones perform, however.
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rosvick (01-06-2022)
#10
01-05-2022, 01:07 PM
As a small addendum, 5x Racing makes a shortened bump stop kit. I'm running the set for Koni yellows, but they show a set for the FSDs. I have no idea how the FSD ones perform, however.
#11
01-06-2022, 11:07 AM
Sorry, I have never bottomed out the back end. The most I’ve had back there is about 250 pounds. Two teenagers or even myself with some gear on the occasion. My son has the same springs on a set of JCW sport shocks and it rides significantly rougher. Not bouncy but harsh. I guess it might just be a trial and error thing with the new KONI shocks. But I have no regrets on the set up. And I just cut my bumpstops clean in half. Make sure you do the upgraded sway bar in the back, A good strut brace in the front, and some adjustable fat and links as well. It will make every corner and lane change much more responsive and exciting. I did everything at the exact same time. This was my wife’s little get around the city car. It was on jackstands in my garage for two weeks while I put on all the suspension, brakes, downpipe, tune, and a few other little things. Car went from fun to nuts! So much better! Half of my garage was filled with boxes of car parts as I collected things. Then I spent a couple hours every day removing and reinstalling.
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rosvick (01-06-2022)
#12
01-06-2022, 12:50 PM
Sorry, I have never bottomed out the back end. The most I’ve had back there is about 250 pounds. Two teenagers or even myself with some gear on the occasion. My son has the same springs on a set of JCW sport shocks and it rides significantly rougher. Not bouncy but harsh. I guess it might just be a trial and error thing with the new KONI shocks. But I have no regrets on the set up. And I just cut my bumpstops clean in half. Make sure you do the upgraded sway bar in the back, A good strut brace in the front, and some adjustable fat and links as well. It will make every corner and lane change much more responsive and exciting. I did everything at the exact same time. This was my wife’s little get around the city car. It was on jackstands in my garage for two weeks while I put on all the suspension, brakes, downpipe, tune, and a few other little things. Car went from fun to nuts! So much better! Half of my garage was filled with boxes of car parts as I collected things. Then I spent a couple hours every day removing and reinstalling.
I've got a Whiteline rear sway bar, but I guess I'll have to add adjustable links all round. I was hoping to get away with the OEM links (they were all replaced earlier last year), but I should be smart and do this all properly.
Thanks for all the info RYANR56 and deepgrey. Greatly appreciated!
#15
04-20-2022, 04:23 PM
#16
04-20-2022, 09:14 PM
6th Gear
#17
04-21-2022, 07:04 PM
6th Gear
From another thread... to share/discuss here too !
I spoke to Koni by phone.
Yes, it seems that the SA’s for the Gen1 MINI ‘Can’ be used with some of the lowering springs out there. They still say that the jounce bumpers (aka ‘bump stops’) can cause issues with the shock because of huge spikes in internal pressure from frequent bottoming, or near bottoming events. Too much force on the rebound valving and the long-term thermal capacity of the fluid (the fluid wears out too fast)
Yes, shorter or softer stops can alleviate some of the symptoms… but there will still be more frequent bottoming events with lowered suspension on the car vs one that has full travel available to it. With a trimmed jounce bumper… that bottoming, when it happens, will be more harsh and wearing to the shock... they just happen less frequenly. No free lunch there.
They have improved the seals on the red SA’s to be more customer resistant to different choices of springs vs the gold color FSD’s (same valving and fluid used in both iterations)
And…
They still assert that the SA’s are optimized for the stock ride height and stock rate and curve spring set.
Koni said that if you wanted to change to different rates … sure, possible … but no where near optimal and it throws much of the ‘systems approach’ in the engineering of this shock to the wind.
They are in the business of selling things … so if a customer is ‘hell bent’ on reinventing the huge amount of engineering that went into the package… they can’t stop them … the only thing they can do is to make their package more resistant to the abuse.
For me, ‘working’ and ‘optimizing performance’ are two different things…
sure you could get something to ‘work’ on a 53…we see it all the time with people that pay money to lower the performance of an ‘upgrade’… but will it work better… hmm 🤔
If you want to go with a lowered suspension on the car (the OP said he did not) … then I’d highly recommend a damper package that has matched spring engineering and testing behind it … or a well designed, quality built coil over package like the Öhlins, KW, AST that take a systems approach to designing the package together as a ‘unit’, springs and damper.... (Spring-Rate/lenght/damper/valving/travel/jounce-rate/jounce-tip-in/ackerman/etc etc).
Last point…lowering a car, in and of itself, does not equal better performance handling…. especially in the real world on real roads.
good food for thought
this is my opinion as an engineer, owner and user of the product in question…
In the end, it is just an opinion … and there are lots of them in the world
Motor on and have fun while you do it!!!
.
Yes, it seems that the SA’s for the Gen1 MINI ‘Can’ be used with some of the lowering springs out there. They still say that the jounce bumpers (aka ‘bump stops’) can cause issues with the shock because of huge spikes in internal pressure from frequent bottoming, or near bottoming events. Too much force on the rebound valving and the long-term thermal capacity of the fluid (the fluid wears out too fast)
Yes, shorter or softer stops can alleviate some of the symptoms… but there will still be more frequent bottoming events with lowered suspension on the car vs one that has full travel available to it. With a trimmed jounce bumper… that bottoming, when it happens, will be more harsh and wearing to the shock... they just happen less frequenly. No free lunch there.
They have improved the seals on the red SA’s to be more customer resistant to different choices of springs vs the gold color FSD’s (same valving and fluid used in both iterations)
And…
They still assert that the SA’s are optimized for the stock ride height and stock rate and curve spring set.
Koni said that if you wanted to change to different rates … sure, possible … but no where near optimal and it throws much of the ‘systems approach’ in the engineering of this shock to the wind.
They are in the business of selling things … so if a customer is ‘hell bent’ on reinventing the huge amount of engineering that went into the package… they can’t stop them … the only thing they can do is to make their package more resistant to the abuse.
For me, ‘working’ and ‘optimizing performance’ are two different things…
sure you could get something to ‘work’ on a 53…we see it all the time with people that pay money to lower the performance of an ‘upgrade’… but will it work better… hmm 🤔
If you want to go with a lowered suspension on the car (the OP said he did not) … then I’d highly recommend a damper package that has matched spring engineering and testing behind it … or a well designed, quality built coil over package like the Öhlins, KW, AST that take a systems approach to designing the package together as a ‘unit’, springs and damper.... (Spring-Rate/lenght/damper/valving/travel/jounce-rate/jounce-tip-in/ackerman/etc etc).
Last point…lowering a car, in and of itself, does not equal better performance handling…. especially in the real world on real roads.
good food for thought
this is my opinion as an engineer, owner and user of the product in question…
In the end, it is just an opinion … and there are lots of them in the world
Motor on and have fun while you do it!!!
.
Last edited by mountainhorse; 04-21-2022 at 07:43 PM.
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