So my 03 R53 with 70,000 miles is about due for shocks and I think the strut mount bushings are going too. I'm a little torn on shocks, koni yellow vs FSD's but I think I'm gonna go with the FSD's. My real question is would adding fixed camber plates and a stiffer rear sway bar make the car too loose?

The suspension is bone stock, except an M7 strut tower brace and it definitely has some under steer in it, but would camber and a swaybar be too much in the other direction? I live in Colorado so I do have to deal with snow and I don't want the back end stepping out on me all winter but a little more balance would be nice.

 

IE plates combined with a 19mm bar are an excellent combination on the street, and (IMO) both "stickier" and better-balanced than a larger bar without the camber plates.

Ask me how I know.
I started with a 22mm solid bar without camber plates. (similar stiffness to a 25mm hollow bar.) Car would rotate well, but the bar was simply balancing-out the lack of front traction on corners. Next I added the plates in front, the 22mm bar made the car responsive, but "loose" in slippery conditions, and especially if you had to get off the gas in mid-corner (that SUV backing out of a hidden driveway on a country road FYI).
I dialed-back to a 19mm bar, and it works for the occasional track day also.

Now, if you are talking about autocross or hard-core track-rat, (RacingGuy04), the best solution depends on class rules and track.

Just my 2¢.

 

Ha, I wish I was a track rat, I do one or two track days a year, the rest of the time I'm on public roads, though mountain roads at 4 in the morning are low traffic and alot of fun.

It sound like you're saying that just a big sway bar give you balance, but a 19mm bar in the back, and the camber up front you get balance and more overall grip?

 

Following as I am looking to run the same setup

 

That's exactly what I am saying.

Combine this with a good alignment and you will be happy. So, what is a good alignment for the street, that sticks well, improves turn-in response, and wears tires relatively evenly across? (you will still need to rotate, or wear out two fronts for each back tire.)

The IE camber plates are fixed, and provide -1.6˚ front camber, here is the rest of what I specify when I get mine done:
Front Toe: Neutral (0˚ to -0.05˚ total), this is also called "zero toe"
Rear Camber: -1.2 t o -1.3˚
Rear Toe: 1/16” total toe-in ( 0.07˚ per side, 14˚ total), to a max of .1 per side, .2 total

This alignment was suggested to me by Jeff Bibee, owner of TSW (Texas Speedwerks prior to his selling the parts business to Way Motor Works). Jeff designed suspension bits, and was a fierce autocross competitor. It works well for a quick street car.

If you have adjustable front camber plates, and choose less camber (de-camber more) in front, you could take the rear camber to a max of
-1.5˚. (The disadvantage of adjustable plates on the street is that they are likely to get noisy over time.)


Notes on alignment:

• Most alignment techs go by the alignment specs built into their equipment, but they can over-ride their "canned" specs. They may question the "zero toe" in front, but it works.
• Some street & autocross folks do run up to 1/16 toe-out in front, but then you will have to pay a lot more attention just to hold a straight line on the highway. You will also see more front tire wear.
• Some shops claim that a Mini's rear-toe is not adjustable, but then you need to find a different shop. (Confirm first.)
• The front attachment point of the rear trailing arms are slotted to provide toe adjustment. Bolts are loosened, slide it a bit, re-tighten. Setting may move a bit when they tighten, so it may take a couple attempts to get it right.

Drive & Enjoy!

 

SWEET Thanks I just printed this out for future use!

 

I completely, wholeheartedly, 100% agree with Mini_Crazy. Excellent advice.

I've been running the IE fixed plates with a 19mm rear Eibach bar for years and I'm very happy with the combo. It's just a better set-up IMO than just a really big rear bar. Some camber is a very good thing. Bonus, my tires wear more evenly than they did before the plates.

I run zero toe front and rear but a little more rear camber. The slight bit of toe-in he recommended is probably a good idea for most.

- Andrew

 

Cant wait to run this setup next month! I am currently on the same stock suspension from 136k ago. I think ill notice a difference

 

I agree with camber plates and 19mm bar for the street.
Just like Mini_Crazy, I had larger rear bar (25.5 hollow) with no camber plates. I added camber plates and thought it was a little loose for street. I changed to 19mm with camber plates and think it is a great combo for street.
The alignment suggestions are good.

 

With 70k on the clock, your front lower control arm bushings are probably shot. Get some poly bushings to replace them with. From experience, the FSDs are great on the street, but only "OK" on the track. While I know of someone who uses these on the track, I found them to act a little soft side.

What he said.

My 2¢

Note, in my signature, I balanced the hollow 25mm bar in back with a 27mm bar in the front and fixed camber plates.
Not loose at all and it turns better than a gokart
But that was a lot of work as a lot of the front needs to be taken apart to put the front bar in.

Note: If you are good with tools, what you plan to do is all very "do it yourself" and there are some good DIY threads to help you. If you want to do the bushings yourself, get the pre-assembled ones from Way.

 

I guess its official then!

 

Thanks Eddie S, I've been keeping an eye on the LCA bushings, are there signs of failure other than leaking?

Do you know how the FSD's compare to the stock dampers on the track? I only do occasional track days and the roads around here are pretty rough/potholed so I'd like to keep as much suspension travel as I can and have a comfortable ride without sacrificing too much performance.

I lowered my first R53 with H&R springs and bilstein shocks and the handling was fantastic but the ride was a bit rough so that's my motivation for going with FSD's. I'm open to other shock ideas that work with the stock springs, but I'd rather not lower this car.

I'm also on the fence about doing the work myself, I did it myself the first time and snapped a pinch bolt on one of the steering knuckles which was a nightmare to deal with so I'm a little gun shy but depending on what shops quote me for labor I may end up doing it again.

To do the LCA bushings, if you get the pre-assembled ones, do you still have to lower the sub frame?

 

Edie07S raises a good point, in that all suspension mods should be based on a suspension that is working properly.

On that front, it means replacing the rubber suspension bushings with urethane (because the originals probably died by 50K miles), and also carefully checking the ball joints and tie-rod ends for any indication of "slop" or looseness in these components.

Some people claim they can simply "feel" when these parts are worn and loose. That's certainly true as catastrophic failure approaches, but I know that I have had trouble feeling small amounts of wear, so I would rather trust a dial-indicator mounted on a magnetic base to check. This is especially-true when I am running "zero toe" instead of pre-loading the tie-rod ends with toe-in (in stock form).

For me that means jacking one front corner at a time into the air (so the front suspension hangs-down free), mount the magnetic base of the dial indicator on the control arm, and then on the tie-rod. In both cases the indicator should be measure against the nearest part of the steering knuckle. You are checking for any horizontal movement, with one person attempting to move the bottom of the tire in & out for ball joints, or turning for rod-ends. It helps to have a second person watching the dial indicator, but it can be done by yourself. You want NO play. (For me, .010" means it's time to be ordering parts for a repair.)

I have to say, I am impressed with this thread! Three knowledgeable people have reached consensus on how to help someone out, without anyone on the thread trying to "rip each other's throat out", or do the "mine's bigger/better than yours" thing. Bravo

 

As far as testing goes couldn't you do the kick test as well? If you are comfortable and have the tools I would do it yourself. I had a shop in town quote me 2100 and the mini place quote 3100 just for the install I was supplying parts

 

Don't know about them leaking. That is not one I have heard about. These are the bushings where the front lower control arms meet up with the body towards the rear of the car, about where your feet rest when you are sitting in the front seats. From what I understand the rubber breaks down and they become loose. Most post here talk about them being pretty well worn out by 50k miles which is why I bring it up. If you are tracking your car and have over 50k, then I would do the change out because tracking put major wear on your car.

I ran the FSDs on my '07S with a 20mm RSB, stock S springs and shocks. I think those shocks with that RSB was not a good combination. On a short track, the back was too loose for my taste, with not enough dampening; it was better on a long track where the dampening didn't seem to be as much of a factor. However, as I said, I thought the FSDs were a great road shock with much better handling and ride than the stock shock. For me, though, that didn't translate well to the track. With that said, remember, anything that you do to the car is going to be a compromise. If your car is a DD on rotten roads and your track days are secondary, then the DD side of the car is what you should address and learn to "drive the car you have" when you are on the track. That is, and this is said without knowing your track experience, you should learn correct technique first and then look at changes to your car that fit your technique and experience. So, for a mainly DD car, I would go with the FSD and a modest RSB (19mm, starting on the softest setting) and the camber plates. Honestly, the most fun change I have made to either of my MINIs was to put in the camber plates.

Stock S springs or Sports suspension springs (a bit stiffer) would be fine with the FSDs. Neither of these will lower the car. However, I am not sure where or how you get a set of sports suspension springs.

I have done the shocks and struts myself following some DIY threads and found it reasonably easy. The pinch bolt is tough. A MAPP gas torch is a must for the first gen MINIs to heat up the threaded end of the steering knuckle. If bolt breaks, just drill (use a cobalt drill) it out and put in a grade 8 bolt and nut, which is how the 2nd gen MINI is done.

This one, someone else needs to chime in. I did not do mine. But I thought it looked like there were just several bolts to the underside of the car that needed to come off and the bushing just slides off the LCA. If that is the case, then the subframe would not need to be dropped. I could be wrong. I know that doesn't help much.

 

Not sure the "kick" test is enough (assuming you are talking about ball joints). Jack up the car and squeeze them with a large set of slip-joint pliers or by pulling out on the bottom of the wheel while pushing in on the top of the wheel. You are looking for any play. If not sure, replace them. Remember, if you are out on a track, going into a corner at 90 mph and your ball joint breaks it ain't gong to be pretty. It is much cheaper to replace them now, even if they aren't full worn out.

That price sames way high. 8 hours to do shocks, rsb and camber plate. The camberplate cost nothing to do if you are doing shocks. Then add $200 (at the dealer), less by an indi, for an alignment.

 

I believe that the oem bushings are fluid filled, and when they fail, the fluid leaks out, but I could be wrong. I definitely plan to put powerflex bushings on when these wear out but for a daily driver, I don't really see the point in replacing them before they fail.


Well, I started racing Karts when I was 10 and formula ford when I was 18 so I know how to drive but I freely admit that front wheel drive is kind of weird to me; the car generally understeered last time I was on a track. It is mainly a daily driver and track days are just a bonus to me, so as long as the car is predictable and reasonably well balanced, I think I'll be happy. Honestly the biggest limiting factor at my last track day was having to manage my brakes which I actually wore a set of OEM pads that had at least half the meat on them all the way down to the backing plates. and melted an emblem off one of my wheels. It was a track with a couple of long straights in to medium speed corners and I guess our cars weren't designed to slow the car from 115mph to 45 repeatedly I'm kind of tempted to put some brake ducts on it to cool the brakes next time I take it to that track, but we'll see, it's hard to afford all the toys I want


Maybe I'll give it another shot, I'll kind of throw my dad under the bus here and say that he's the one that snapped the bolt. Before we hit it with PB blaster or a torch, he threw a long breaker bar on it and pulled hard, but c'est la vie.


I'll do some more research or hopefully someone will chime in, I'm pretty sure that there's a couple of bolts that come from the top and secure the bushing to the sub frame, maybe instead of completely removing the sub frame you can just lower the back a bit and get to the bolts without lowering the whole thing to the ground.

 

Does any one know how this setup would workout with wheel spacers? And if so will they help or make the suspension worse off?

 

OK, that is very helpful to know your background. I expect that with the formula ford experience you know about throttle off oversteer in a corner.

You should be really happy with the setup we have been talking about and will really appreciate the added camber. The RSB will give you a chance to use throttle steering. This will be fun both on and off the track. However, there will still be front end push at the limit; it is FWD after all.

Hey, what was the track that beat up your brakes?
Watkins Glen, where I go, is hard on brakes too, so I understand your "pain".

I also understand about affording things so my suggestion here is with that in mind, but safety first. MINI front brakes really need a full race pad and you need to remove the dust shield for air to get to the rotor slots. The front brakes are doing way too much work to not do this. Also, for someone with your experience and familiarity with late braking and all of that, don't even bother with the street/track pads. Now I understand this is not inexpensive, but the best pads for the track are the Carbotech XP 10s. These are so nice for the track, especially for someone with experience. Easy to modulate (think trail braking) and great grip. If you don't want to change them out, they do work well on the street (I would changed them unless it will only be a short time between track events - a month or so). I found it was easiest to change pads by pulling the 2 bolts holding the carrier to the steering knuckle; not the sliders. I know that works well on the Gen 2 brakes; not sure on the Gen 1s. The gen 1s are easy to put brake ducts into. While there is room to route hose past the engine on both sides, I think you can only use a 2" hose vs the more common 2.5". On the Gen 1s people use the fog light openings in the front bumper for the air intake.

Just something to think about (I know, I am "spending your money" ), you might be best off finding someone who will sell you the front brakes from a Gen 2 S. These are the "JCW" brakes for the Gen 1 MINI. They have a much larger rotor than the stock Gen 1 S has. I had good success with them, but found that the calipers do heat soak after about 20 min of driving on a track that requires hard braking and they will become "softer". This was with Motul brake fluid. I don't know if SS brake lines would have helped with this as I jumped to the Wilwoods rather quickly. Keep an eye on the NAM market place for used parts like this and you can make out pretty well.

Hope this helps.

 

MINIs seem to really like an offset (ET) of about 38mm vs the 45 mm ET of the stock wheels. So, ya, a 5 to 10 mm spacer would be OK. I have not run into any suspension issues with a 38 mm ET but I do get some rubbing in the rear wheel well with the 225-45x17 tires I have.

 

I am running the same tires but with FSDs so I shouldnt have any rubbing. Do you happen to know the stock wheel space? I would like to get a little closer to flush but not to close to rub if you know what I mean!

 

The offset or ET of a wheel is the amount towards the center of the center of the car. So a 48 mm ET is further inboard than a 38 mm ET. Stock is 48 mm ET (I miss-spoke above).

With an aftermarket wheel of 45 mm ET with my 225 width tires just touches the inside of the rear wheel well arch; the front is fine. Any less of an offset digs into the wheel well liner. Now this is with a set of Toyo R888 that are really wide for their stated width (hope that makes sense). Other people have stated that with that size tire they have had no problems with an ET of less than 45mm.

 

Ok gotcha now thanks for explaining! So to get the wheels and tires a little closer to flush I would want how big of a spacer? like 5mm?