If I do say so myself, my last "Help me!" thread ("Help me pick my 19" wheels!") was a huge success in not only helping me, but several others, find 19" wheels for our rides.

For the next installment, I thought I would tackle handling and get your thoughts/ideas for how to optimize my car's handling.


A. MY GOALS

My R60 is my daily driver and I don't intend on doing any track racing or autocross. I simply enjoy spirited street driving and am looking for a setup that will let me have the most fun in the safest manner around town and on the highways and backroads. I don't mind a stiff ride; I like to feel the road. My goals are to improve cornering, traction, and stability at speed.


B. MY CAR

I have a 2012 Countryman S, non-ALL4 (). When building, I opted for the standard (non-sport) suspension.


C. HANDLING COMPONENTS

Based on what I've read, I can think of probably at least four areas to target with handling, though please shout it out if I'm missing something:

1. Tires
2. Struts/shocks/springs
3. Sway bars
4. Strut bars

1. Tires: This was the subject of my earlier thread and has already been addressed. I am running Michelin Pilot Super Sports in 245/40/19, which is a wide, sticky, lowish-profile tire. Hard to imagine anything to improve here.


2. Struts/shocks/springs: The ultimate would probably be coilovers (e.g., KW v3) but they aren't available for the FWD R60 yet. At the moment, I'm running the NM springs, which dropped the front end 1.6" and the rear about 1.4". If Koni ever comes out with their "yellow" sport shocks for the R60, I'll be all over those. In the meantime, I'm stuck with the NM springs on the standard (non-sport) struts. Not much to do here right now.


3. Sway bars: This is where things get interesting and I need some help. I think I understand the point of sway bars, particularly a rear sway bar, which is to reduce the amount of "understeer" that the cars come with from the factory. From everything I've read, I would really enjoy a good rear sway bar, but questions abound:


-> Is 22 mm too much for a street car? It seems that 19 mm was good for street use on the R53, but lots of R56 street drivers opted for the 22 mm. Can we assume a 22 mm won't be too much for the R60 on the street?

-> What about the front bar? It appears the standard suspension comes with a 22 mm front bar from the factory, whereas the "sport" option bumps you to a 23 mm bar. Will I benefit from adding on the 23 mm front bar if I'm looking to optimize the handling, especially with a beefy (22 mm) bar on the rear? Or will the bigger front bar just fight against what I'm trying to do with the larger rear sway bar?

-> Since my car is lowered, will I benefit from adjustable links for the sway bars, front and/or rear?



4. Strut bars: A lot of people say these are "all show, no go," while others swear that they tighten up the steering up front and make steering more precise. Obviously, I'm hoping for the latter.

Assuming strut bars do help, why do you never hear about strut bars for the rear? Is there such a thing as a strut bar for the rear towers?

Also, once again assuming they help, is there anything to look for in one bar versus another (e.g., thickness)?




Alright, ladies and gents, let the discussion begin. I'm really looking forward to some insight from the wise minds on the board when it comes to ways to improve handling!

 

seems like you have most of the questions already answered...

Sway bars or Anti-Sway bars actually help keep the car flatter during cornering, reducing body roll. Playing w/ various sizes & settings(if adjustable) can improve or reduce over/understeer. Larger ones will keep the car more flat(to a point). Overly stiff ones will reduce the effectiveness of independent corner suspension. (ie acts like a solid beam tying Left to Right). This results in 'bobble-head' of the driver on bumps etc as the car now lifts vs absorbs road imperfections via shock absorption/travel.

Adding a larger front while not proportionally adding a larger rear will increase understeer(not typically what you want in a neutral/balanced car).
Simply adding a few mm to the rear bar diameter will increase oversteer effect, ideally making the car neutral or slightly allowing some oversteer.
Too thick/stiff & the car will have snap oversteer or will rotate too much. Not exactly safe for street driving (various conditions(rain/snow, emergency braking etc).


Longer Adjustable links can create additional stiffness. however, additional stress is placed on the links/hardware vs the bar. Its a band-aid approach to create a stiffer bar.
Shorter links are great for matching a proper bar to a lowered height.

Strut bars can work. Adding additional bracing/stiffness *can reduce the 'deflections' caused by stiffer suspension/wheels & flexing chassis.
- Newer cars see less benefit due to modern construction & overall stiffer chassis than older generation(of cars in general).
- On the flip side, adding bracing/bars can help 'Maintain' proper geometry & chassis stiffness. Thus reducing flex, future squeaks, etc.
(I have 5 bars on my Corrado, I'd rather the suspension work while I maintain chassis rigidness).

Additionally:
Camber plates for the front & adjustable control arms for the rear will help you dial in the camber to suit your needs.

Parts like a motor mts/inserts or a short shifter will obviously not increase handling but may increase driver connection.

 

Smitty pretty much nailed it. Unfortunately the aftermarket hasn't quite caught up with this car with coil options and sway bars. My first suspension upgrade will be a slightly stiffer rear sway bar to flatten the car out and take care of the minor amount of under steer.

For this car a set of good lowering springs, appropriate shocks, and a stiffer rear sway will be the best street able solution. Again, however, the aftermarket hasn't quite caught up with this car and part options aren't yet available.

 

Thanks for your thoughts, SmithWerks. Really appreciate you dropping in on this thread. My responses are below.

I definitely wouldn't upgrade the front without doing a bigger bar on the rear. But I was wondering if it would make sense along with a bigger rear bar.

On my stock setup, the rear is 16 mm and the front is 22 mm. Do you think jumping up 6 mm on the rear (to a 22 mm bar) but leaving the front stock might take things too far in the other direction, with too much oversteer? Too much snap oversteer and rotation would be a disaster on the highway!

You may have lost me a little bit on that one. Are you saying that some people misuse adjustable links by trying to get extra stiffness out of what would otherwise be a too-soft bar? I always thought they were specifically designed to put a sway bar back into a proper "neutral" position on a lowered car (which I think is what you were saying in the bold part above, no?

I think I got my impression from NM's webpage for their links (http://www.nm-eng.com/nm328856-nm-en...ink-kit.html):

"On lowered vehicles, allows repositioning of sway bar to neutral position."

Since I am lowered on the NM springs, should I be using adjustable links for the front and rear?

Good to know. They are relatively cheap and easy to install (at least in front) so it's likely something I'll pursue. What about the rear, though? Any way to put a strut bar on the rear?

Good points. I forgot to mention adjustable control arms. I actually already have those (SPC) and put them on when we did the springs. I am at -2.1 camber in the rear, but will likely lower that a bit to around -1.7 to improve tire wear.

I assume the goal of camber plates would be to get some negative camber on the front? If so, how would that affect handling for a daily driver?

Forgive my ignorance: What are motor mounts?

 

You're right, of course: The aftermarket is a little sluggish on the R60. My hope for the thread is to discuss handling mods in a theoretical sense, not necessarily in light of current options (since there aren't very many!).

 

Is there even a rear sway out right now from ANYBODY? I've been searching and cold calling places looking for one.

 

Per email from Jerry, NM bar will be available in two weeks.

 

Hujan, I'll try to clear some of that up..

Front Sway- OK, Yes, only upsize if also doing a larger rear.
I'm unsure of any posted specs for any rear bar. +6 may be doable. In my experience most bars increase aprox 4mm for 'upgrades'. However, it all depends on how much UNDERsteer the factory designed into the car. *(manufacturers do this for safety, go too fast into a corner, simply let off the gas & it will pull out. Do this w/ Oversteer & it will rotate. Dial in the ideal a more neutral or slight oversteer & the car will 'follow' through the corner faster.
* F to R tire pressures will also effect over/under steer.

Sway Links: Yeah I can see how what I wrote was confusing LOL.
Yes, Ppl sometimes use adjustable links to create additional stiffness. It works, but its not the proper way. They are intentionally designed to compensate for lowering & maintaining proper geometry.

W/o looking I cant say if Sway Links are totally needed when lowering 1.6"~. Most likely not as this is a pretty minimal drop. The bar will have an area of movement as the suspension travels/works. This is normal. Adjustable links are typically requires for excessive lowering or clearance issues like axle rubbing, frame clearance, binding, etc.

Rear Strut Bar. I havent looked closely enough to find mounting points. I'm sure it is certainly possible to add one, but the compromise is likely going to me trimming some plastic or drilling the body for hardware/nutserts.
The usual spot would be right behind the top of the rear seat backs. Top of the shock towers across the chassis. (about where the parcel tray meets the seat backs)
- Depending on design, some can be more effective than others(like everything else I guess). It's pretty simple to incorporate a 'quick release' type fastener so you can easily remove the bar when you make that impulse TV purchase & want to take it home w/ the seats down. :P


Front Camber Plates: These allow adjustment of camber & caster. Increased caster can increase handling stability by pushing the wheels more forward. This tends to also reduce 'bump steer' on lowered vehicles. They also allows Camber adjustment. Increased camber benefits cornering grip, to a point. Too much will also increase tire wear. (street car vs track car = always a compromise)
I think -1.5 to -2 on a the front is the max you'd want to go for tire wear. The OEM components may even allow for this.


- Like the rear, depending on design, sometimes lowering can exceed factory adjustment ranges. Leaving you w/ too much negative camber. If this is the case, adjustable camber plates would help. (design is typically 2-4* of adjustment)

Ahh Motor Mounts. these secure your engine to the chassis & transmission to chassis. The factory uses rubber. It s great product that lasts a long time & has good characteristics for heat, cost, etc.
It does a great job at isolating vibrations & is typically a durometer of 40-50A shore hardness. The downside is it's too soft to hold the engine very tightly, especially on higher HP, aggressively driven cars. The movement isolates the driver from the car/road (NVH). The movement also also increases 'drivetrain power loss'. The total power the car makes @ the crank is lost by aprox 17% when it makes it to the wheels. (think of a tight guitar string vs a loose one, more power is transmitted in the tight one).
Whats the fix? Harder durometer mounts of difference grade Polyurethane. This is achieved by the aftermarket making either complete Poly mounts or my providing a partial Poly insert that fills a void in the negative space of the factory rubber mts.
The durometer & ratio or complete mount & the position of the mount in the car will all effect vibrations & power delivery. A tighter mount, that reduced engine movement allows your engine to more effectively have its full power actually transmit to the wheels. (stiffer mounts = less drivetrain power loss. More power to the ground, more feedback(and vibrations, etc) to the driver. (again race car vs street car compromises.)

The factory leans towards comfort for most people, Racecars are extreme for power, etc. Most enthusiasts want somewhere in the middle. Selecting the right parts is a personal decision of compromise.
(ie an overly sprung car is great for a smooth track, not so much for choppy streets, resulting in less tire contact & a worse handling/slower car)

Hope this helps...

 

NM-E does offer a Torque Mt. insert for a FWD CM.
Any specs on the proposed NM-E Sway? size?

 

You mean the OEM or the NM aftermarket option? The OEM is 16 mm for the standard and 17 mm for sport, according to this page:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...58&hg=33&fg=45

NM's rear bar is going to be 22 mm, according to Jerry. I don't know what it would do to the handling to have both bars (front and rear) 22 mm, but I definitely don't want to increase oversteer to dangerous levels.

Good to know. Would I be able to tell when looking at the sway bar whether I need adjustable links? Is the goal that the sides of sway bar (where it attaches with the suspension) should be parallel with the ground?

Hmm. Sounds like a rear strut might be more trouble than it's worth. Didn't think about it actually extending into the cabin. I like your quick release idea, though!

Interesting. Is there anyway to know how much camber and caster can be achieved (if any) without camber plates? Does anyone make any camber plates for the R60?

This sounds awesome! Are motor mounts different from a torque-arm insert? They sound awfully similar when it comes to replacing rubber with polyurethane. I was planning on getting the NM torque-arm insert. If they are not the same thing, are motor mounts available anywhere?

Good point. MINI has to satisfy a fairly wide range of consumer with its cars, from the soccer mom (soft and cushy) to the track rat. I definitely fall in between, though probably closer to the track rat than the soccer mom. I like feeling the road and like a stiffer ride, but not at the expense of safety.

It does. I really appreciate all your insight. I'm learning a lot and hope others are too.

Also, not sure if any of this would be worthwhile, but I found it interesting that these guys have create a number of chassis reinforcement parts to improve handling on the Countryman, though this stuff is perhaps unnecessary for a daily driver:

http://www.ultraracing.com.my/Catalo...0(2010)&page=1

 

Yeah, I am definitely planning on getting the torque-arm insert. I posed this question in my post above, but is that the same thing as the "motor mount" you mentioned earlier? If so, consider that box checked.

The NM rear sway will be 22 mm according to Jerry.

 

here is an example of a motor mount. http://www.tdnparts.com/engine-mount...-11-6-782-374/

Here is the NM-E Torque Mt. INSERT (aka basically a motor mount). NM-E offers an Insert for the Mount shown in the detailed description, not an entire mount.
http://www.waymotorworks.com/nm-engi...r60-all-4.html

The Trq Arm insert can help transmit power to the ground by reducing/eliminating Wheel Hop on hard launches, etc. An insert still offers some rubber cushioning so the vibrations shouldnt be too harsh. I will likely be doing this insert soon.

 

the Ultraracing braces look to be a good design, overkill for a daily driver, but they should definitely add rigidness to the chassis. They wouldnt hurt on a daily, but they just may not benefit much either.

to recap some of your replys quickly..
Unsure of aftermarket specs for rear bars. I didnt know NM-E post specs yet. NM-E or Neuspeed has been in the game for 30yrs. They make a good, safe, great fitting product line. Quality stuff. I know the springs may seems stiff for a lot of ppl. but otherwise, they tend to do the R&D & typically never offer an overly aggressive product at the cost of reliability, etc.
so, I'd trust what they have made is still quite very safe on the streets.


You can look at the sway bar when the car is on the ground. If should be pretty close the parallel w/ the ground, give or take a few degrees of angle.


The rear hatch area strut bar could be beneficial, especially w/ larger wheels, etc. I need to look in my hatch again to see how simple it would be to add one.
Sometimes the use of a nutsert (Neuspeed used these quite a bit) might make the bar an easier install. Nutserts mount in the sheet metal so you do not have to access the rear side. You would need to drill aprox 4 holes though to mount a plate for the bar to attach.


not sure if anyone make s caster/camber plate yet for the R60. Eibach & SPC offers these for a wide range of cars though.

 

I have the NM springs and the back is lowered a perfect amount, it looks just right. The front is almost perfect, but I'm going to modify where the strut fits into the knuckle to get it about 1/4" lower, so then it will look perfect. Anyway, putting camber plates on the front (with the NM springs) would make the front of the car sit too high in relation to the rear and not look good.

So, I wouldn't use camber plates in conjunction with the NM springs. With coilovers it's a different story because the ride height is easily adjustable.

 

Agreed. Interesting to see that someone outside the normal manufacturers are looking at chassis mods for the R60.

I am pretty confident the rear sway from NM will be 22 mm. At least, that's what Jerry has told me personally on several occasions. Your point that NM is good at what they do is well taken; I just didn't know if they were marketing the 22 mm sway more for track rats (or wannabe track rats) than daily drivers looking to have a little fun on the commute to and from work.

Thanks. I've looked at the rear sway and it is still roughly parallel to the ground with the 1.4" drop from the NM springs. If KW's come out, I may take things lower, though; maybe another quarter inch or so. I wonder if that will give rise to a need for links.


Sounds interesting. I'd love to see something like that if it would be beneficial and unobtrusive. From memory, I don't recall anything like that for the R56-R59 models, though. If they don't have one, we almost certainly will never see it.

 

Good point. Didn't think about how it would affect the height of the car, but that does make sense. Truth be told, I'd actually like to see both the front and rear a touch lower on the NM springs, but it's all good.

 

since no one else has mentioned this, i will

the single most cost effective / best handling improvement you can make is to take a driving school

THE STIG in a box stock car identical to yours will blow you away after you do all your mods

scott

 

Well, maybe suspension mods . . .

Seriously, though, this is good advice. How do you find a good driving school?

 

i would start with the local mini club, if that fails, a local track will probably be able to help

for a fun vaca, pick a track, like say laguna seca, and contact them for school dates etc

scott

 

GREAT IDEA! I love this! The lady might be a tough sell, though. Minor detail.

 

Hey Hujan,

Off topic here, but I just wanted to say that you did a great job on The Voice the other night...

 

Wow! He does look an awful lot like me! Too bad for him.