So I just ordered my NM springs and am about to pull the trigger on the LCA; will probably go with the SPCs.

Here is a potentially stupid question:

I'm planning to throw on the NM 22mm rear sway bar when they are ready (should be in a couple of weeks, according to Jerry over at NM).

Will the sway bar affect whatever camber I settle on with the LCAs? In other words, if I determine that I need X camber without the sway bar, will the sway bar cause me to need Y camber? Or will it not affect the camber at all?

Reason I'm asking is because I am wondering if it makes sense to go ahead and throw the springs and LCAs on there and set the camber right, then add on the sway bar whenever NM has them for sale, or should I just wait and do it all together?

Like I said, potentially stupid question.

 

The rear sway bar should not have any affect on your camber issues as in terms of it going out of wack. Remember though by putting on a thicker rear sway, it will stiffen up that rear more as u are looking to do springs too. I would advise first get your lowering done, drive it, then decide if u need it. Jerry is great and nm has good products. Just know what your getting into for real world daily driving.

FYI I can take a corner with no rubbing and UHP Toyo proxes 4+ at 50 mph and have no probs. I tried to go faster but with cops and slow drivers it's hard to do. I have a ton of little bumps and dips where I live and putting a thicker bar might make my head rattle

 

Won't e(a)ffect it at all. You will probably have to buy new sway bar end links though. I had to on my R55. The sway bar is most e(a)ffective if it is kept parallel to the ground where it attaches to the end links(after the bend). The stock end links can sometimes be too long after lowering a car. They push the end of the bar up too high, lessening the e(a)ffect of the sway bar.

I can never remember how to use e(a)ffect properly sorry.

 

I dunno what to say about this; suspension is definitely not my strong suit. All I know is that's the paper that they gave me, and that the wheels are definitely more upright in a "normal" position than they were before. Things definitely seem right.

 

-3* rear seems a tad much for AWD. I know the older RWD Bimmers were about 2.4 stk, but thats going back a few gens.
I cant foresee more than -1.7 for the CMA4. usually there is a range to be w/i spec as well. typically 1/2 a drgree (ie -1.4 could be -.9 or -1.9)

 

Well that sounds good then. If they were -3 you'd be able to see it.

Something is fishy with that printout. If you look at the green square, it will have your setting in large print, and then above it, in the corners, is the range of acceptable adjustment per the car manufacturer. For example, look at the box for your left front camber, it can be set anywhere from -.2 to -1.1, that is the acceptable range, and as long as it is adjusted somewhere within that range then the box will turn green and all is good. If it's out of that range the box will turn red. But now look at the rear camber, that range of adjustment is way too negative and it also is an extremely narrow window of adjustment. When frstrtdmac had his alignment he said the machine showed the window of adjustment to be from -1.5 to -1.8 for the rear camber and that sounds right on the money for a sporty car. A normal (not so sporty) car will be around -.5 to -1 to optimize tire life at the sake of cornering grip.

So who knows what's going on with their software and that printout. But if the tires were angled inward at the top before, and they adjusted them so that they're more vertical now, and only slightly angled in, then that's what you want, regardless of what the printout says.

BTW, I don't mean to sound nerdy, like I studied up on alignment or anything, it's just that I used a Hunter alignment machine like that for 15 years and get the same printouts... I've done thousands of alignments on those machines.

I happen to have a scan of the last alignment I did on my other car, it's not a MINI, but you can see how the rear camber spec range is from -1 to -2 which is normal for a sports car and I was expecting to see something similar on your printout, so that's why I was dumbfounded (LOL, I love it when I can use that word) when I saw your printout.

 

that seems like its ok.. still I think the spec of -1.5 is still too much.. It will depend on if you want to go through tires a lot or not.

 

With that having neg 1.5 in the rear that is in spec, but I like to set them less than that. As the suspension travels in the rear you will gain more neg camber so we can get more tire wear with less. That is why we use the adjustable rear control arms.

 

Not sure if you're referring to the chart I posted, but as I said, that is not from a MINI. Your customer's chart is on page two of this thread.

 

Before I decide to pull the trigger on either th H-Sports or SPC, can anyone tell me the pros and cons of rubber vs. polyurethane bushings? Seems to be the big difference between the two. From what I've read online, PU is stiffer and maybe a touch noisier. Other sites make it sound like a miracle.

 

Page two of this thread: https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...37-post33.html

 

Hujan, PU are great if your racing.. Just stick with Rubber for daily driving. unless thats all you have is options.. PU is fine, but can cause noise later.

 

I got my alignment done today.
Front is fine now but definetly need control arms for the rear.

The tech. told me that I should order 4 arms because with only a set of 2 he won't be able to adjust toe.

I am confused

 

They didn't have a problem getting my toe within spec, but if you want more adjustability you'll need the upper control arms replaced as well. MiniMania has a deal for all 4 control arms if you think you need all of them. I've only replaced the lower ones.

 

I didn't have a problem with Toe either.. Again, it depends on what your trying to accomplish? If your wanting full adjustability, go with all 4 corners with the arms! For daily driving which most of us are, the rear's are just fine.. My overall is within spec

 

sorry double post

 

So the ding dongs that put my arms on today, put them on the top....good lord. What a frickin mess. Had to argue with the guy to get him to put them on correctly.

The scariest part is that my acceptable range specs for my alignment are totally different than the ones posted by "threar". ON THE SAME CAR...just a different shop.

 

what springs did you go with? Did you do the KW's?You should have similar specs unless they messed with other parts!

 

I have NM springs.

I was talking about the acceptable ranges. That should be the same...programed by Hunter. The ranges on my sheet are different than the ranges on "threar"'s sheet. Mine does say "2011-12 R60 Cntryman 4x4" on the top.

Now that the arms are on. I think I'm going to take it to a real alignment shop to get it dialed in. I'll call the $58 I paid for the alignment "lesson learned"

 

Wow, there is just so much mis-information, confusion, and different specs that I can see how people are getting frustrated.

I may not be the world's authority on MINIs by any means. But I've performed thousands of alignments during my career and owned a couple of MINIs. So, here's my two cents...

1. I haven't aligned our R60 yet, but I'd assume that you adjust the rear toe the same as the other MINIs... The trailing arm is the arm that is hinged up ahead of the wheel and "trails" behind to the hub. It runs perpendicular to the control arms. At the front of the trailing arm it connects, via a rubber bushing, to a metal piece that bolts to the body of the car... with 3 bolts if I remember correctly. Loosen those 3 bolts and slide the plate side to side to adjust rear toe.

Again, this is how all other MINIs are, and I assume the R60 uses the same setup, but haven't looked underneath to verify, and our car is at work with my wife right now so I can't check. That adjustment is very precise, you barely move the plates and it multiplies to a much larger change by the time it moves the wheel. If memory serves me correctly, those bolt holes are barely slotted, and you may not even see the slot under the head of the bolt. In the morning I'll take a peek under the car and post a photo of what I'm talking about.

2. If your alignment person is telling you that you need upper and lower arms to adjust toe then leave and go to a reputable shop with a qualified tech. Your best bet is the MINI dealer as nobody else has their experience and knowledge of these cars.

3. Adjust the toe by the trailing arm adjustment like I described and adjust the camber (non-adjustable in stock form) with an aftermarket adjustable lower control arm.

We've seen a few different sets of numbers now. For a general understanding, IMHO, if you're doing autocross or other track events, then you probably want about -2 degrees rear camber for good grip (at the expense of quicker tire wear). For "sports car" like street driving you'll want to be at about -1.5 degrees. If you don't push the car hard in corners and would rather have a setting that doesn't wear the tires as quickly then you'll want to be about -1 degree.

JohnJohn, as you've noticed, your rear toe is red and out of spec. As you can see, the range of adjustment is very narrow because this is a much more critical adjustment than camber, which can safely vary quite a bit. The rear toe needs to be in spec, if not it will quickly chew up your tires. Wrong toe eats tires much, much quicker than camber ever does. If I were you, I'd have them get your toe adjusted into range, and also set the camber to about -1.5 degrees. Slight differences in rear toe settings, besides wearing out tires, makes a difference to the handling being neutral, or understeering, or oversteering.

Exactly. That was my point earlier when I saw threar's printout. On the Hunter machine, you input the year, make and model of the car, then it'll ask you which version (2wd or 4wd) and then, it may ask if it has 17" or 18" wheels since MINI sells the car either way. So, there are several different versions of R60 specs in Hunter's software and there is the possibility that they were entered wrong on one or more versions.

Also, I know from my own personal experience, that Hunter would update the software on our alignment machine every couple of years. I have had times where I had to align a car that was only a year or two old and therefore it wasn't in our software yet, so I had to look up the specs myself... so now you're relying on the the guy doing the alignment to come up with the correct specs.

 

agreed. The guys I let touch my car today are idiots, my bad.

I'm going with these specs found in another thread:

 

Good, that is a copy of the sheet that comes in the box with the NM springs. Make sure to take note of the rear toe specs and that it lists total toe in. So if you have .4 total, then you want .2 on the left rear wheel, and .2 on the right rear wheel.

 

I am going to order a set of lower control arms and find another alignment shop.

Thanks for the info

 

The dealer took care of mine today. Glad that's over...now on to exhaust.

 

What did they set you at, JohnJohn?

Went to the dealer the other day after putting in the NM springs and they set the rear camber at -2.1 left and -2.2 right.

From the top of the Hunter printout, it looks like they put in "Sports Suspension" and "18" wheel" into the computer (though, from handwritten marks, it was corrected to 19" wheels). I suspect that the "Sports Suspension" to which they refer is the MINI OEM sports suspension, which is obviously different from the NM springs. (I would post up the printout, but my scanner decided it no longer wants to work, so I'll have to do it at the office.)

Anyway, it seems a bit excessive negative camber to me and I'm thinking of taking it back in for them to reduce it a touch. Even for more spirited driving I would expect something in the mid- to high -1.0s.

Edit: My sheet looks similar to the one you posted at Post 67 of this thread. The ranges for rear camber on my sheet and the one you posted are "-2.0 to -2.2." Seems like a tight range with that favors a lot of negative camber. Wonder what the deal is?