Hi all, and thanks in advance

Over the weekend I installed a whiteline 20mm rear sway bar and h-sport lowering springs on my 06 r53. As suggested, I went to get an alignment a few days after and here are the results, with stock settings in parentheses:

Front Left:
-Camber: -.7 deg (-.9 to -.1 deg)
- Toe: .11 deg (.11 to .19 deg)

Front Right:
-Camber: -1.3 deg (-.9 to -.1 deg)
-Toe: .10 deg (.11 to .19 deg)

Rear Left:
-Camber: -2.2 deg (-2.1 to -1.4 deg)
-Toe: .14 deg (.13 to .27 deg)

Rear right:
-Camber: -2.2 deg (-2.1 to -1.4 deg)
-Toe: .11 deg (.13 to .27 deg)

My question is, what suspension parts do you think I need and how bad do you think I need them if my goal is aggressive street driving + having fun on some windy roads one or two weekends a month, while keeping relatively even tire wear? Keep in mind, I also use my mini as my commuter.

I know the options are lower rear control arms and camber plates...what are your opinions on how much it would help me to get one or both of the above/or how much it would hinder me to remain the way it is now?

Thanks again!
Scott

 

i'd get camber plates. fixed are lower maintenence than adjustable. there often seems to be used ones available, here and other forums, as people often "move up" to coilovers which may come with camber plates...or they may be parting out.

some minis come with oem lower controll arms that allow for adjustability. maybe yours does? if so, problem solved. if not, it's up to the individual as to wether getting your rears to around -1.5 is worth it.

then you have the question of settings....which is also, shall we say, "unique to the driver"

 

I would suggest more negative camber in the front (around -2.0 deg) and less negative camber in the rear (around -1.5 deg or even less). Somewhere around zero to a little toe-in at the rear. Somewhere around zero to a little toe-out in the front.

Since you have a 2006 with adjustable lower rear control arms, you should be able to get less negative camber in the rear by having the alignment tech adjust the rear lower control arms. They should be able to get around -1.7 in the rear with the stock adjustment. That would be fine without spending money on better adjustable arms.

For more negative camber in the front you can go with fixed or adjustable camber plates. However, I do not think that fixed plates are a good option for you because you already have -1.3 deg on the right side and fixed plates add about -1.25 degrees so you would be at -2.6 degrees which is probably more than you want because it will cause higher tire wear. Thus, your best choice is adjustable camber plates. However, are they worth the money? That is a difficult decision that each person must decide on their own. I think they are worth the money. I use my car as a daily driver and spirited driving in canyons. The additional negative camber makes a big difference, especially with good tires. Adjustable plates, such as the H-Sports, do not increase ride height and also eliminate strut tower mushrooming and replace the rubber top bearing that will tear over time. Some adj plates increase ride height so choose carefully.

Since rear toe is a pain to adjust and many shops will not even touch the trailing arm bolts to do the adjustment. I would leave your rear toe alone since it already has a little toe-in. I do not know your tire diameter but since your rear total toe is 0.25 degrees, I would estimate that you have a little less than 1/8" total toe-out at the rear which I think is fine.

The front toe is easily adjustable so I would suggest having it adjusted to zero degrees or a little negative degrees (toe-out). Probably not more than 1/16" total toe-out which is probably about -0.15 degrees total toe (toe added together from both sides). Looks like you are currently at 0.21 degrees total toe-in or about 3/32" total toe-in.

If you add negative camber in the front, you will probably find that your swaybar can be set on the softest setting for a pretty neutral handling car. Then you can increase the rear bar stiffness for something like an auto-x where you want more overstreer.

 

Thanks oxtox and quikmini! I think I'll bite the bullet and buy the h-sport camber plates.

It is kind of odd, the alignment shop I went to did adjust the rear toe. The tech told me he did it in order to affect the rear camber...I wonder why he didn't adjust the adjustable rear arms like you said I have on my 06. How can I tell if they are maxxed at one end of their limit?

 

The camber is adjusted with a eccentric bolt in the mount of the lower control arm (mounting hole closest to the tire) so it will be difficult to tell if it is maxed out. My GP with JCW springs could be adjusted to -1.6 degrees with the stock adjustment. I am not sure what you should expect with H-Sport springs which I suspect lower the car a little more than JCW springs and thus create a little more negative camber than my JCW springs. I would not think that adjusting the toe, the proper way, at the trailing arm bolts would affect camber but maybe it does.

 

my thoughts...i agree with everything quik told you. not sure of the adjusting toe to change camber remark
so how far did you drop with the springs? after i put on my bc's (about 1.25" drop) the pre alignment camber in the rear was -3.1. i don't think you have enough adjustment in the stock control arms to get you where you want to be at that point. i have the new (no maint) helix control arms and have had no issues.
lastly, i have similar settings to quik and have no regrets:
front -2.1 with 1/32 toe out
rear-1.5 with 0 toe

 

My tires are 7.5" wide. The springs I installed lowered it about 1" front and rear.

I just bought the h-sport camber plates and a set of 2 h-sport control arms for the lower rear control arms used from another NAM'er.

I can feel a bit of pulling due to the camber difference in the front, and I would like to have that adjustability in the rear too, to get close to the settings you guys suggested. Sounds like the stuff I got will get the job done, plus make my car handle even sicker! Will just have to eat ramen for a little while haha

I do have one question about the front camber...seems like that one is further out of the stock range than the rest of the settings. Will that result in a substantial amount of more tire wear, than say -1.5 deg or so in the front? Or with aggressive driving and rotations every 5k does it tend to even out?

 

You purchased the right stuff.
If you stay around -2.0 degrees (or a little more) in the front and rotate, you should not see much more wear especially if the toe is near zero because the tires will not scrub so much (from toe). If you drive some what aggressive that also tends to even out the wear (negative camber wears the inside edge and aggessive turning wears the outside edge). It is important that the toe does not get out of wack because that will wear a tire because with negative camber the tire rides more on the edge and too much toe makes the tire scrub right across that edge, wearing the tire edge very quick.
Have fun.

 

Nice! I'm excited...luckily I'm in the Air Force and they have the auto hobby shop on base where I can put it on a lift and feel all official doing the work.

Thanks again for your help. Now I just have to get another alignment after my stuff gets here and I install it. I tried to haggle with the alignment shop that tried the first time and couldn't do much, but they wouldn't give me a deal...was worth a try I guess.

Since the camber plates are adjustable, do people try and adjust them themselves or do most just get the alignment to what they want and leave it?

 

i have, and i think most do, leave it once they find the right settings. that said, it took 2 tries before i settled on my current settings.

you can adjust it if you want, but you won't know where you really are that's why the shop uses that fancy machinery.

 

If you want to adjust camber yourself, you will need to make or buy a camber angle measurement tool. Your AF Hobby Shop might even have one. You will still want to get the toe adjusted at a shop unless you also have a way to measure the front toe.

 

So, I installed my h-sport camber plates and lower rear control arms over the weekend and got my car realigned as suggested. It ended up being:
Front camber: -2.0 deg, toe: -.04 deg
Rear camber: -1.5 deg, toe: .01 deg

It drives great, can't wait to go out this weekend.

Being a huge dork, I was using a torque wrench when I was screwing the nuts on the top under the hood, and I think I had it set too low and it wasn't clicking...so I kept going...and going...(stupid lol) and sheared the bolt right off! Luckily, I was able to cut the weld off from the other side and put a new bolt in...whew!

One other question...there is a clunking noise that comes from what sounds like the camber plates sometimes when I'm steering. It mostly just happens during steering when the car isn't moving, or moving slowly. Is there a way to fix that? As long as it isn't anything bad, like the camber changing up on me while I'm driving, or the strut getting ready to pop out, then I'm not too worried about it.

Thanks again for all of the advice!
Scott

 

ant effect on the cars handling? if you jack the car up and take the wheel off, can you reproduce the noise by trying to move the strut? my initial thoughts are 1. maybe your spring has no preload and is moving up and down or 2. if you have adjustable end links, they can come apart sometimes.

good luck! and keep us posted!

 

Could be that your top strut nut (nut that goes on the top of the shock shaft and torques onto the camber plate bearing) did not thread down all the way and the strut is a little loose. The nut can torque to the correct torque but not thread all the way down the shock shaft. I had this problem when the shaft threads were slightly damaged so the nut torqued to the correct torque (which is relatively low) but was actually not threaded down all the way. It is relatively common that the nut does not get threaded down all the way and causes a clunk at slow speeds and usually turning. My clunked going in and out of my driveway or in slow turns through gutters.

Grap onto the spring and see if you can wiggle the spring in the mount. The spring should not move. I could wiggle mine and reproduce noises. Also look at how many threads are showing on the top shock shaft (above the nut) of each front strut. You should be able to see the threads from the engine compartment, throguh the center of the camber plates. The threads showing should be about the same on each side. If one has many less threads showing it would be a good indication that the nut is not threaded down all the way.

 

haven't had a chance to play with it yet. Could it be possible that it is overtightened, not allowing the bearing to spin freely (bc I used an impact wrench)? I'll check the other stuff tonight and post back. Thanks!

 

Depends on the impact wrench used and the torque setting.
I used an impact wrench set on a low torque setting, so mine actually torqued up with the impact but did not thread all the way on. The nut bound up on the very slightly damaged threads before it threaded all the way on.
If you used a large impact wrench on a high torque setting, my thought is that you would strip/damage the shock shaft threads, damage the nut threads, or break the shock shaft before being torqued so tight to bind the bearing.

If you are unsure about the torque or threads, I would:
- Remove the strut
- Compress the spring
- Remove top nut
- Inspect threads of shock shaft and nut
- Run the nut up and down the shock shaft threads to make sure the threads are good and the nut threads easily al the way down the shaft
- If everything threads well, reassemble and torque the nut properly
- If it does not thread well, fit the bad threads on shaft or replace nut

 

Still haven't had a chance to remove the struts and try to diagnose the problem yet.

One more question though...since I already got an alignment after I installed the camber plates, if I mark their position, remove the struts, then get them back in the same place, will the alignment be close enough that I don't have to get like my 4th dang alignment since working on my suspension?

 

Should be close enough. Actually, you should be able to get it almost exactly the same.

 

Just a follow up...I finally got to take the struts out last weekend and take them apart.

I made my own BMW strut socket with a 21mm deep socket and a radial cutter No more impact wrench.

I went ahead and checked that the threads were good after using an impact wrench -- no issues there, threads looked perfect! Got lucky I guess.

It was pretty obvious what was wrong...In the stock setup there is a fairly wide washer in-between the spring hat and the strut mount/bearings (I think that is where it went in the stock setup). Anyway, I put that same washer on in the same place with the camber plates (hotchkis - above the spring hat) and the mating surface above the washer wasn't the same as stock (above the washer it wasn't touching any material). When I uncompressed the spring, the hat would push the washer up sideways and it was bound up and actually digging into the shaft -- lodged pretty solid into place. I think that made a gap where the shaft nut wasn't screwed down all the way, allowing the spring hat to jiggle up and down independent of the shaft a little.

I removed the larger stock washer altogether and put a smaller one that rested directly on the hotchkis bearing cylinder, and things went back together much nicer.

End result - no more knocking noises!

P.S. - I'm really tired and I'm not sure what I wrote just makes a whole lot of sense, but thanks for all the help and advice! Until my next blunder! haha

 

Glad to hear you solved the problem.