I'm trying to order one on Monday. I like the m7, but I like the gtspec too. The gtspec looks like it will clear my intake comfortably and price (picture in my gallery, I have the alta intake, but took the alta filter off switched it with a different one), but I don't know how it will do with preventing mushrooming?

 

I dont know if those clear the intake cuz I have the JCW brace, which does clear the intake, but also if have used the stock camber adjustment available you'll probably need an adjustable brace so it'll fit.

 

Save your money.

2nd-gen cars do not appear to be prone to mushrooming, a front strut brace will do essentially nothing for your handling, and the M7 is not well-engineered anyway.

 

How do you figure the M7 SB is not well engineered? Also, show me some info. that a STB does absolutely nothing for handling?

 

No fighting! I'd pm ravspec, but He hasn't been on for quite sometime now.

 

Pic of my Engine bay:

 

I would like to hear this one as well

Randy
M7 Tuning

 

A few observations:

• 2nd-gen cars do not appear to be prone to mushrooming

May be a bit early to tell. As time passes and the metal fatigues at the top of the strut tower from constant stress, we'll see.

• a front strut brace will do essentially nothing for your handling

I noticed a difference at the first turn, as many others will attest. I can't produce scientific test data to support any claim, but I haven't seen any data provided by you to support your claim. Common sense and race testing do indicate a stiffer chassis makes for more responsive handling by limiting chassis flex, which contradicts your view.

• the M7 is not well-engineered anyway

For this statement to be true, one would have to define "well-engineered", a subjective statement indicated by the use of the comparative adverb "well", which you did not. Having installed one on my MCS I can attest in form it is certainly "well-made", i.e. exibiting craftmanship, sturdy, and attractive. As for function, it integrates with the existing structure of the vehicle with exacting tolerences. I think that fairly well covers it.

Now, if they'll produce the new brackets so it will not rattle against my recently installed JCW intake (which they list upfront as an excluded application), I'll be content.

 

So, anyway will either clear the filter or the whole intake? I know the shroud would need modified with the M7, but I don't have the alta filter on the intake. I have the big blue one in the pic.

 

I agree that the M7 bar is well-made, but to be well-engineered, it would also have to be as far forward from the firewall as possible, and not have hinge-points at the ends.

I myself have a strut brace on my 1st-gen, but alone of the three braces on my car, it does little or nothing for handling, even under considerable stress. I even used an alignment rack to demonstrate that a strut brace was unable to affect camber at all. My understanding is that the 2nd gen may be even stiffer in the engine compartment.

As to mushrooming, I haven't noticed anyone starting a 2nd-gen mushrooming thread on NAM, and many of these cars have 50K miles by now. The design flaws that caused mushrooming on the 1st-gen cars appear to have been corrected. Consider yourselves fortunate.
If you are concerned about the possibility, try a product that fits under the tower where the bottoming-out impacts that cause mushrooming are coming from, instead of sitting on the top of the tower. Camber plates or under-tower reinforcement plates are good preventative measures.

 

<<I myself have a strut brace on my 1st-gen, but alone of the three braces on my car, it does little or nothing for handling, even under considerable stress. I even used an alignment rack to demonstrate that a strut brace was unable to affect camber at all. My understanding is that the 2nd gen may be even stiffer in the engine compartment.>>

I've come to find, that any bracing added to the car, no matter how minor, helps with handling. Before I lowered my Cooper S, I added a rear tower bar. Yes, I could definitely tell the difference. Once I went away from the stock set up and lowered her, I might as well have taken it out, because I didn't notice it anymore. The M7 definitely gives me a tighter feeling in the front. And for the record, I'm not one of those people whose mind allows them to think they have a change. Project Car magazine recently did a test and stated that STBs do work. As for the M7 STB, I'm not sure I'd call it a hinge type. The bar is bolted to the plates. The only other way to get a more secure fitting would be for them to weld them on, which would not be practical. It's definitely less flex resistant than other bars. Nothing against you Old Rick, it's just I go by "feel" on my vehicles.

<<As to mushrooming, I haven't noticed anyone starting a 2nd-gen mushrooming thread on NAM, and many of these cars have 50K miles by now. The design flaws that caused mushrooming on the 1st-gen cars appear to have been corrected. Consider yourselves fortunate.
If you are concerned about the possibility, try a product that fits under the tower where the bottoming-out impacts that cause mushrooming are coming from, instead of sitting on the top of the tower. Camber plates or under-tower reinforcement plates are good preventative measures.>>

I think BMW might have finally owned up and realized that the 1st gen. Cooper's shock towers suffered from a serious design flaw. It seems like they reinforced the 2nd gens pretty well, like a normal car should. Plus with the added length in the suspension rebound, it should help ease some of the force. I actually had Brian Harris MINI reluctantly hammer mine back down. Could I have done this myself? Yes, but I felt that a design flaw like that should have been taken care of by the brand. Hopefully the 2nd gen owners don't have to deal with this.

 

Disagree. See chickenplucker's explanation.

 

For any new second-gen guys, the effectiveness of a front strut brace on the first-gen cars is a topic that has been hotly debated for the last six years, without any resolution.

The general tenor of the discussions has been that on these cars:
- upper front strut braces are 99% bling on these cars. The front towers do not move relative to each other. Period. Not at all. Thus a front strut brace is useless for handling, although it may help in noise control.
- lower strut braces,, such as the OMP contribute to handling
- the Cabrio front diagonal braces stiffen up the front of the car considerably

However, if you do feel the urge, at least get a good one: a solid bar with no bolted parts, adjusters or hinge-points to make it less stiff, with a straight (not curved) bar that spans the towers as far forward as possible.

Ireland Engineering offers one that is well designed for more than appearance: http://www.bmw2002.com/ Not having a 2nd-gen car, I can't testify on whether it does anything useful, but at least it is well-engineered for the task.

 

That'll just be your little secret. Unless of course you want to provide more than just heresay. Until then, I'm tuning out...

FYI for what it's worth, here is a explanation of the loads and physics involved:

http://team99ers.2.forumer.com/index.php?showtopic=702

 

I'm aware of the issues, and have done some research to try to measure the effectiveness: result was zero influence on camber.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ervations.html

 

guess I'll tune out as well, until oldrick contacts JCW engineers and asks for a detailed explanation as to why their FSB is little more than "bling."

 

There is quite a bit of bling in the JCW kit...

 

The Ireland engineering brace dosen't look like it will clear my filter or intake shroud, but further down the road I'll go with the IE camber plates.

Edit: I ordered the gtspec brace just now. So, you guys can put this thread to rest.


Edit2: Everyone seems out of stock of the gtspec. I'm just going to wait until jan. to see if they are back instock.

 

I can attest, my car feels mcuh sexier with the JCW STB. As for performance, I doubt it does enough to really compare dollar to dollar with other suspension modifications.

I've heard a few people rave about rear strut tower bars, but I haven't gotten around to that yet.

To the original poster, I'm not sure any of the STB's aside from the JCW, which is curved, are going to clear your intake.. is that the Alta unit with someone elses cone filter? I'm pretty sure I've read complaints here about people with the Alta intake rattling against the M7 STB.

Randy, why don't you chime in here while we've got your attention...

 

Yes it is a different company's filter. Randy told me to ask Peter because the R56 is his line of products, but I'm just going to wait until after new years to order it. The pictures I've seen with the Alta intake the filter is underneath the M7 bar with a modification to the shroud. This filter I highly doubt will fit underneath. I've talked to the people at Gtspec. They told me that their bar will clear my intake system, because it clears the DDM RIS that is shown in the pic on gtspec site.

 

yeah, is there an underbody for the second generation? This would solve all the clearence and placement issues?

 

http://gtspec.com/index.php?nav=prod...id=302&cat=156 only works with stock exhaust

 

I would hate for anyone to leave this thread with the idea this "research" is even remotely rational, objective, or scientific. If you insist, we can go thru it line-by-line and expound upon its faults. On second thought, I won't waste our time, but one should ask the question: What does tightening or loosening the bar on a rack have to do with actual forces acting upon the structure at cornering speed on a rough or uneven road surface.

 

The issue is whether a brace can have any effect at all on camber - if it can't change the distance between the towers by pre-loading, or resist change in that distance without bending, it won't do squat for handling.

Have a fun time proving this to yourself - I did...
6^)

 

This discussion has been around since the cars first hit streets back in 02 . I have personally had 4 different brands on my car and of the 4 , 3 of them made a noticeable difference in any type of aggressive cornering. The argument came to a halt a couple of years ago when JCW made them a mandatory addition to their challenge series cars. No one was of the opinion that they would add something to their race cars for the hell of it . As was noted by a few of the previous posters they have felt a positive result from a proper STB. I've put this challenge out to any local doubters before . Let me take two laps around the block in YOUR car . One with our brace on it and one with out. As it is a 10 min install you can put it on for the first lap or the second, I won't peek, and after the laps I will tell you if it was on or not ? Sound fair ?

Randy
M7 Tuning