just some comments that may help others trying to decide...

true, but whomever is doing your alignment will appreciate it if you have trimmed them. my alignment guy gave me a big "thank you" after having done a mini with a similar set up without trimmed towers.

[QUOTE=COR BLMY;2535709]thanks brian, i was waiting for someone more qualified than me to respond. i can't see how anything could be "better" on the track than the bc's....with the exception of ease of adjustability....that's the one thing that i covet in the cross set up....but of course it comes at a 1k premium which wasn't worth it to me. for others it may be.

not true, as pauliekeys has stated above. there are several people in the thread you referenced who did not trim their towers the bolts have several possible locations on the camber plate. you can move them to gain access if you chose not to trim the towers.

 

Yeah, but if I don't remember bad, whatever position you put the bolts, they will still be quite difficult to reach if you don't trim the towers. But I'll rereaad that topic to check if I'm mistaken.

 

i have two buddies on the track at daytona this weekend who run BC coilovers. they are running in the solo/instructor group and surprise many "faster" cars. as stated before, with the proper selection of mounting holes, no trimming is required. a ball-ended allen wrench does make adjustment easier, as you can get to the bolts w/ a slight misalignment of bolt and tool. i don't consider the BC's to be a second-rate choice.

 

Well, that's good to know then

 

That's a bit of a false positive, as I do the same in my Cooper without coilovers of any type.

 

agreed. perhaps i should have quoted previous posts that stated or infered that BC were inferior/unsuitable for track work.

a stock MINI is a good platform on the track. even w/ my mods, i can't run the times of a certain well driven SSB MINI.

 

I dont run any series. I have done many time attacks and time trial events. I have been sponsored by several suspension companies and have driven all kinds of different cars and apparently unlike you, have also used many different kinds of suspension systems. (I can tell this because you still run on BC coilovers).

I can go on and on about the enormous differences between Cross' and the cheaply made BC's, but I will just explain a few big factors in suspension geometry which a company like BC would never spend money looking into.
(I just wanted to let you know that I don't even like Cross, so your making me compare one crap suspension company with an even crappier one. )

I dont know how much research you have done on your coilovers but the BC doesn't even come with inverted monotube in the front. Most decent suspension companies will come with a inverted monotube on McPherson type suspension setups.

You should not have tried to out me on this because I just made a short comment, but if you are as serious as you say you are with all these different series how can you possibly go with a suspension company that can only lower the front of a mini so much. I feel one of the most important aspects of suspension is ride height. And the front doesnt go anywhere as low as I want it to. Even the way your car is setup, it is not only a little too high for my taste your rear end is a little lower than your front from what I see in your pictures, and that would make your car prone to understeer which would be alright on a high speed track but if you want to improve your times autocrossing lower the front more (which is probably already maxed out). Just try running Cross suspension and you will know exactly what I mean, its a night and day difference.

By the way anyone can track solo1 and autocross with any suspension, that was the worse argument Ive ever seen from someone trying to defend their product.

If you'd like to see my cars go ahead and send me a PM or I can post them here if you'd like. Ive done a variety of test on physical numbers and personal feel.

 

 

ninjlao...
I am NOT going to get into a pissing match with you ...
See ... I am one of those on NAM looking to help ... give advice (not saying I am an expert) ... ...have fun and meet others... please read my posts ...

IMHO, your statemet was not true.

You seem real quick to assume a lot ... how do you know what other suspension I have used on MINIs or even suspension on other cars ???
Thanks for the tips on my car set up ... although your info from looking at a photo is wrong.

I am going to restate my post.

I have NEVER said the BCs are the best .
My point is for just over $1000..with the features they have, are very capable.
A cost effective alternative.

 

Sorry Man. I really never wanted this to happen Guys lets stop bashing each other here hey. I was the one that started this thread and now it is just stupid. Yes I did want to know what the difference was as they look Identical but this is just getting out of hand. I was really after opinions from both parties so i could make my OWN decision on which way I want to go, which by the way is NOT BC nor Cross. Everyone is going to have their own opinion, if it is worth sharing then share it. But if you are taking stabs at people then keep it to yourself!!

 

Alright.... Im sorry for sounding a little harsh.... but you should reread your post and see who started the pissing match by telling me all the experiences you have and then asking me if Im in any series.

 

OK I'll lay down my suspension theory.
I believe that all inexpensive coilover systems that you buy on the market ($2000 and below tein, JIC, Greddy, BC, D2,) are all just a simple shock and spring setup that has stiff spring rates to hide their crappy valving. So the only thing I look for in a coilover setup is the design.

I have shock dynoed Megan coilovers, along with JIC and can safely say that all 4 corners are different with both of them so the only thing that can make them half consistent is the springs. This is true with all the companies mentioned. I cant list out all the different negatives so I am just going to write them out in comparison.

-spring wise the JIC tested a lot more consistent than Megan. But even JIC was inconsistent, By the 3rd inch of travel it jumped up a whole KG. The megan springs do not even have a 3 inch travel. I maxed out the spring by then.

-The reason why Mcphereson type struts are inverted is because these types of suspension are directly affected by the road it is driving on (it is directly attached to the Hub) Therefore there is force going directly into the shock as you corner, from the up and down movement of the shock to pressure to the sides from different camber adjustments. In fact I have bent 2 sets of coilovers on my s13 from megan because they were not inverted, this was before megan inverted them. And on the third set It started leaking after 2 trackdays. This is the reason why Inverted is NEEDED (for track use)

-Piston Diameter, The piston diameter of the Megan(Borchuan) is 40mm. Which is the basic piston diamter of most cheap suspension systems. JIC on the other hand is 45mm. The advantage of having a bigger piston diameter is the increased damping sensitivity and also there is more shock oil so it doesnt heat up as much. Which many may or maynot feel but is a big factor once taken to a track. Many of the high end coilovers will get as big as 55 to even 65mm diameter piston diameter. which is a significant difference. This is mainly for the damping difference.

-Then there is the lowering. Maybe I am the only one on this forum that thinks this but ride height is once again a major factor at the race track. In fact such a big factor that I will go and modify the lower bracket of the front of the Megan to lower it more than it will let me. This in itself will make my choice between the 2 easy.

I have said this before and I will say it again. If you are going to be serious about tracking your car then i will easily get the Cross over the BC. If you are only planning on daily driving the car and want to get coilovers for the sake of having them then save your money and get BC. I like the BC better than the Megan strictly because the rear of the BC come with its own top mount, but the Megan you have to use the factory mount which I believe ruins the coilover feel of the car, the front comes with a pillow ball mount whereas the rear still has a rubber bushing in the mount.

CorBlmy you stated that BC is an effective cost alternative for the mini. IMHO you are correct if they were to have coilovers for the street, but to modify BC to where the Cross is standing one will be spending over a grand. for springs, modifying the lower bracket and rebuilding them over and over again.

I also wanted to say that, we have tested stock suspension vs Megan coilover on the s2000, same day, same s2000, same driver. It was consistently a full second slower. This information really means nothing to me considering whatever coilover I get I immidiately get them revalved to my spec, but for those of you who get influenced by these numbers there you go.

 

So after all this talk, ninjlao, can you give us examples of "high end coilovers" as you call them?

 

huh....? you mean with proper valving out of the factory.
most european brands primarily dutch
Ohlin
Moton
JRZ
Sachs
Aragosta
Penske
Biltein
Koni
QUantum

 

Yeah, of course I've heard about most of these, the only ones I didn't know are Moton, JRZ and Aragosta.

So what do you think of H&R, KW and Eibach? Do they do properly valved coilovers too or not? Because I'm trying to decide which coilovers to get for my mostly street driven MINI and H&R, Eibach and KW are high on my list of preferences, but the height adjustable only versions.

 

That was a bit uncalled for I was just asking which companies you thought to be high end since you didn't mention any, this doesn't mean that I don't know them

 

Hey Im sorry about.
You just sounded like you were being a smart ***. Because this thread seems like everyone against ninjlao. Once again Im sorry I will edit my previous post.

 

H&R and Eibach are both metalugist companies and so they mainly concentrate on components like springs and sway bars. There coilovers are made more for street use. They have progressive springs which means that the rates cannot be changed on them. Also they use the stock top mounts. All of the components put together they have a stock feel to them, just firmer.

KW are actually surprisingly valved well. The only problem that I have with them is that they are twin tube in design. The problem with a twin tube setup is that they are usually not rebuildable at least not at most suspension shops. They are sealed cartridge units, and if you want a different spec in valving the only place to get it done is probably at KW themselves and so when they do get revalved you either have to take their word when you get them back or get them shock dynoed again.

 

I guess that brings on another discussion before someone tries to flame me for what I said about KW.

Another one of my suspension theories are that I get suspension systems to set them up to my liking. which means revalving. If you think about it, once you get coilovers they will be with you for the life of how ever you own the car. If they ever go bad, it usually costs only about 100 per shock. So you dont need to go looking for a new set of shocks from Pepboys. Now that is the reason why I get nothing but monotube suspension. So suspension like Tein SS, and KW that are twintube goes right out the window.

There are many other disadvantages to Twin tube though. For example because it is a sealed unit there are not only a few more working parts but the oil and gas are mixed in together, while monotube is completely seperated by a secondary piston. In other words the dissipation of heat is worse on a twin tube as well as overall consistency.

So when you see the external reservoirs on the KW, dont be fooled because even though it looks cooler and more efficient in actuality the monotube suspension itself works like a heat sink, which is just as efficient.

 

No prob Anyway, back on topic of coilovers, I get why you think twin tube is worse than monotube, so why you don't like KW. Considering that from the info I gathered Eibach uses the same shock of KW V1 only with different springs, I guess for the same reasons you don't like Eibach much either, but as you said, their coilovers (and H&R) are more for the street use so they might be good if one is after that kind of shock, is that right?

I'm asking this because I don't plan to track my car very often, so I might take those brands into account too

 

ninjlao...how are you accomodating the rest of your set-up with what reads like an incredibly low ride hieght? It's possible to lower ride hieght by 2" with the Megans...that's enough to consider (to have to consider) modifying other components in order to get the geometry between the car and suspension to work well. Just curious...

 

Solid explanation. Thanks

I didn't mean to sound like I was against you. I just wanted to know where you were coming from.

 

This is the sexiest thing I've ever seen on a Mini.

My decision on Cross is solid, my spring rate and valving are a little fuzzy as I would assume they would be fine from the factory. But since you say Ninjlo, that this is very important and Cross will custom valve and spring rate thier systems, what specifications does one look at in trying to get the "right" set up for the C/O system. I'm not looking for good specifications (unless you know) I'm looking to learn how to make a good decision myself based on what I want to do with my Mini Cooper (which is road race/autox).

Your thoughts?

 

I really dont understand the question you asking, but Ill try my best, there is a little of slop with the suspension as you drop the car, for example small bump steers. Usually its not a problem at all, in fact most people dont even notice it.
But in all of my cars that I do compete with, I make products called roll center adjusters. Usually its a spacer that goes in between the lower control arm and the hub. That puts the suspension geometry back into shape. I have not done that for my mini yet, but Ill see what I can figure out.

 

If you are serious about getting them revalved do not get them done directly at the manufacturer. Especially not JIC, I know they do not have a shock dyno. You can take the shocks to a race shop(nascar, not a tuner shop) or most motorcycle shop.

But before I got serious into suspension I drove the car to the track with the coilovers straight out of the box and learned the difference between the stock suspension and a coilover setup.

Then the next best thing before any kind of revalving is better springs. I only use one kind of suspension spring and that is Swift. I have my own spring dyno so I dyno pretty much anything I can get my hands on. And I can safely say Swift is the most consistent by a big margin. I will make another thread about that later on.

After that you should revalve them to your liking. Generally what the shops do is get your spring rate and change the pressure of the shock according to the rate you choose. That is the simplest explanation I can think of.