Suspension TSW X Brace impressions & updates
#101
01-27-2009, 07:54 AM
oxtox - I probably won't be removing the X-brace, assuming that I'm pleased with what I get from it, because, while it's easy to swap in and out, I don't have a lift to get at the dirty side of my car, and I don't expect to pay for someone to do it for me more than once.
It's also winter here, and I'm not much interested in crawling around on the floor of my garage in 30-degree weather before I sell the OMP bar.
So, sorry, but it will be a one-way comparison when the X-brace replaces the OMP.
It's also winter here, and I'm not much interested in crawling around on the floor of my garage in 30-degree weather before I sell the OMP bar.
So, sorry, but it will be a one-way comparison when the X-brace replaces the OMP.
#102
01-28-2009, 06:20 AM
quickmni
This style brace is available from three vendors that I know of.
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=309
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...t/default.asp?
CS=ireland&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=28270900&Count2=9 45411324&CategoryID=52&Target=products.asp
http://www.masonengineering.net/Subp...iCooperR53.htm
Mason is the mfg for the Madness one and I would not be totally surprised if the also did the one for Ireland.
Steve
This style brace is available from three vendors that I know of.
http://www.mini-madness.com/index.as...ROD&ProdID=309
http://store.nexternal.com/shared/St...t/default.asp?
CS=ireland&StoreType=BtoC&Count1=28270900&Count2=9 45411324&CategoryID=52&Target=products.asp
http://www.masonengineering.net/Subp...iCooperR53.htm
Mason is the mfg for the Madness one and I would not be totally surprised if the also did the one for Ireland.
Steve
#104
02-02-2009, 05:46 AM
#107
02-06-2009, 05:51 AM
#108
02-06-2009, 07:47 AM
#109
02-06-2009, 08:07 AM
#111
02-06-2009, 09:23 AM
I guess this means that the OldRick review of the TSW X-Brace was a comparison to the OMP Bar (one bar across the front) and not the brace such as the mason Eng (Mini-Madness) trapezoid brace. The OldRick review use bar and brace kind of interchangeably so I assumed (I know it is a bad thing to do) that it compared the trapezoid brace because that would be the most comparible to the X-Brace.
I too would really like to see a comparison between the trapezoid brace (such as the Mason Eng or Mini-Madness brace) compared to the TSW X-Brace for three reasons. 1. The Mason Eng (or M-M) Brace is much cheaper, 2. I want to know about NVH comparison, and 3. The Mason Eng (M-M) Brace will install much easier on my GP due to the undercarriage panels.
I too would really like to see a comparison between the trapezoid brace (such as the Mason Eng or Mini-Madness brace) compared to the TSW X-Brace for three reasons. 1. The Mason Eng (or M-M) Brace is much cheaper, 2. I want to know about NVH comparison, and 3. The Mason Eng (M-M) Brace will install much easier on my GP due to the undercarriage panels.
#112
02-06-2009, 09:57 AM
OldRick
I have the Madness brace on my GP. I cannot give you a comparsion as this is the only one that I have used. I probably would have gone with the TSW brace but that would have ment some modification of my underbody panels which I was not willing to do. I can tell you that it has not added any additional NVH to the car. If anything it has made the NVH a little better. I also noticed, as you posted in your comparison, that passing while going over the crown of the road is greatly improved and worth the cost of the part just for that reason. I also felt that it increased understeer a bit and had to increase the setting of my Tarrett rear bar.
I did have a failure on one of the fasteners that connected to the front subframe pan. It sheared it right off. Before someone asks they were all torqued to 44 ft/lbs. I remedied the problem by buying four new stock bolts and cutting the center mount bolts to the appropriate length. I never liked the stock fasteners, as they were allen head bolts that rusted very quickly.
In order to use the stock bolt on the outer fix points the stock washer had to be cut off. Just a note that these bolts are a one time use item as they will stretch.
Steve
I have the Madness brace on my GP. I cannot give you a comparsion as this is the only one that I have used. I probably would have gone with the TSW brace but that would have ment some modification of my underbody panels which I was not willing to do. I can tell you that it has not added any additional NVH to the car. If anything it has made the NVH a little better. I also noticed, as you posted in your comparison, that passing while going over the crown of the road is greatly improved and worth the cost of the part just for that reason. I also felt that it increased understeer a bit and had to increase the setting of my Tarrett rear bar.
I did have a failure on one of the fasteners that connected to the front subframe pan. It sheared it right off. Before someone asks they were all torqued to 44 ft/lbs. I remedied the problem by buying four new stock bolts and cutting the center mount bolts to the appropriate length. I never liked the stock fasteners, as they were allen head bolts that rusted very quickly.
In order to use the stock bolt on the outer fix points the stock washer had to be cut off. Just a note that these bolts are a one time use item as they will stretch.
Steve
#113
02-06-2009, 10:02 AM
3rd Gear
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#114
02-06-2009, 02:37 PM
Ok – a comparison between the OMP lower brace, the Mini-Madness forward-trapezoid lower brace, and the TSW X-brace.
After running the X-brace for a week, I decided that the noise and vibration that it adds were just not what I wanted in my road and street-driven car, in spite of the significant improvements in handling.
Call me crazy, but I drove over to Mini-Madness and had the X-brace removed and the Mini-Madness brace installed.
Here’s what I’ve observed after a couple of hours in the twisties since then. Keep in mind that this is both subjective and less than ideal, since evaluating A, then B, then C and trying to compare A against C is not real scientific, particularly if one is relying on memory to do the comparisons. It’s like trying to evaluate stereo components when you can’t switch quickly between the three pieces on which you are doing listening tests. Anyway, for what it’s worth…
Compared to the X-brace, the M-M brace connects to a couple of unused tapped holes on the forward lower subframe, which are probably manufacturing mounting points. The X-brace goes to the rear a foot-and-a-half or so, and connects to two hardpoints under the body where the floor flattens out. The OMP spans the same two points on the lower firewall as the other two, but is a simple bar with no other mounting points.
As a result the X-brace transmits significant road noise, shock from bumps, and engine vibration to the floor pan. It is noticeably noisier than the OMP or M-M brace, and I can feel added vibration in the floor, even through my 3/8” of heavy butyl rubber topped by Lloyds Heavyweight carpet mats. The OMP has a slight effect on noise, while the M-M trapezoidal brace actually suppresses the sub-sonic throbbing that my urethane lower engine-mount bushings created, and reduces felt engine noise and vibration when winding up the engine under acceleration. I also hear appreciably less plastic-rattle over bumps with the M-M brace.
As to braking, both the M-M and the X-brace take a lot of the drama out of hard braking on irregular country roads – you don’t need to make as many small corrections when the front wheels hit minor bumps.
For hard cornering, the TSW has both of the others beat by a large margin. The TSW makes the car more pointable, allows for better throttle steering control, and requires a lot fewer corrections of the chosen line. The M-M does a better job than the OMP at this, and the OMP is a significant improvement vs. stock, so there is a real hierarchy in this aspect.
The TSW, followed by the M-M and then the OMP, is also better at controlling wheel slip under acceleration. Overall, it makes the a car lot more fun to drive hard than the others – you set your line, the body roll is better-controlled, and you follow through without needing much in the way of minor corrections – the car just goes where you point it. Slipping and sliding is a lot more predictable with the TSW, a little less so with the M-M , and still lots better than no brace with the OMP.
So, bottom line is:
- The TSW X-brace costs more, and contributes more to handling, but also transmits quite a bit of NVH felt in the floor..
- The M-M trapezoidal brace works well, is intermediate in cost, and actually reduces some low-frequency NVH, along with reduced interior plastic rattles.
- The OMP is the lowest cost of the lower frame braces, works well to make handling, braking, and acceleration more predictable, and has little if any effect on NVH. It can reduce interior plastic noises by reducing passenger compartment flex, but is not as effective at that as the M-M brace.
It’s rare that one has such a linear trade-off in product effectiveness that tracks along with the prices, but it seems to be true in this case. For me, not being a track guy, but doing a lot of twisty driving, while still being noise-sensitive, the Mini-Madness brace is my pick. Your mileage may vary…
After running the X-brace for a week, I decided that the noise and vibration that it adds were just not what I wanted in my road and street-driven car, in spite of the significant improvements in handling.
Call me crazy, but I drove over to Mini-Madness and had the X-brace removed and the Mini-Madness brace installed.
Here’s what I’ve observed after a couple of hours in the twisties since then. Keep in mind that this is both subjective and less than ideal, since evaluating A, then B, then C and trying to compare A against C is not real scientific, particularly if one is relying on memory to do the comparisons. It’s like trying to evaluate stereo components when you can’t switch quickly between the three pieces on which you are doing listening tests. Anyway, for what it’s worth…
Compared to the X-brace, the M-M brace connects to a couple of unused tapped holes on the forward lower subframe, which are probably manufacturing mounting points. The X-brace goes to the rear a foot-and-a-half or so, and connects to two hardpoints under the body where the floor flattens out. The OMP spans the same two points on the lower firewall as the other two, but is a simple bar with no other mounting points.
As a result the X-brace transmits significant road noise, shock from bumps, and engine vibration to the floor pan. It is noticeably noisier than the OMP or M-M brace, and I can feel added vibration in the floor, even through my 3/8” of heavy butyl rubber topped by Lloyds Heavyweight carpet mats. The OMP has a slight effect on noise, while the M-M trapezoidal brace actually suppresses the sub-sonic throbbing that my urethane lower engine-mount bushings created, and reduces felt engine noise and vibration when winding up the engine under acceleration. I also hear appreciably less plastic-rattle over bumps with the M-M brace.
As to braking, both the M-M and the X-brace take a lot of the drama out of hard braking on irregular country roads – you don’t need to make as many small corrections when the front wheels hit minor bumps.
For hard cornering, the TSW has both of the others beat by a large margin. The TSW makes the car more pointable, allows for better throttle steering control, and requires a lot fewer corrections of the chosen line. The M-M does a better job than the OMP at this, and the OMP is a significant improvement vs. stock, so there is a real hierarchy in this aspect.
The TSW, followed by the M-M and then the OMP, is also better at controlling wheel slip under acceleration. Overall, it makes the a car lot more fun to drive hard than the others – you set your line, the body roll is better-controlled, and you follow through without needing much in the way of minor corrections – the car just goes where you point it. Slipping and sliding is a lot more predictable with the TSW, a little less so with the M-M , and still lots better than no brace with the OMP.
So, bottom line is:
- The TSW X-brace costs more, and contributes more to handling, but also transmits quite a bit of NVH felt in the floor..
- The M-M trapezoidal brace works well, is intermediate in cost, and actually reduces some low-frequency NVH, along with reduced interior plastic rattles.
- The OMP is the lowest cost of the lower frame braces, works well to make handling, braking, and acceleration more predictable, and has little if any effect on NVH. It can reduce interior plastic noises by reducing passenger compartment flex, but is not as effective at that as the M-M brace.
It’s rare that one has such a linear trade-off in product effectiveness that tracks along with the prices, but it seems to be true in this case. For me, not being a track guy, but doing a lot of twisty driving, while still being noise-sensitive, the Mini-Madness brace is my pick. Your mileage may vary…
Last edited by OldRick; 02-10-2009 at 07:52 AM.
#116
02-06-2009, 03:53 PM
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Thanks to OldRick for a nice comparison. I must admit that my car is so noisy that I didn't even notice any increase in NVH from the XBrace. It rattles and bangs and drones (haha!) and although all of that is annoying, I see it as the price I pay for all the handling and performance I get from the car. I wonder, therefore, if it's possible to get both better performance and more comfort in a car that originally sold for about $24,000--no matter how much you spend subsequently?
#117
02-06-2009, 04:30 PM
This is a timely resuscitation of an old thread
(one that I started oddly enough).I was thinking of trying to pick up an under brace at amviv.I think I might go with the Madness.I'm still tempted by the TSW
(cuz of the performance).I have a ton of sounds,vibes and rattles assaulting my ears already,I'm not sure I want more.
(one that I started oddly enough).I was thinking of trying to pick up an under brace at amviv.I think I might go with the Madness.I'm still tempted by the TSW (cuz of the performance).I have a ton of sounds,vibes and rattles assaulting my ears already,I'm not sure I want more.
#118
02-06-2009, 07:22 PM
Join Date: Oct 2006
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The front X-brace mount bolts, which are part of the lower control arm bushing housing mount, are spec'd at 44ft-lbs + 90° ± 15°. For me this was close to about 55ft-lbs if you just do it in one shot. The rear of the X-brace utilizes one of the three rear front sub-frame mounting points on each side and is torqued to 74 ft-lbs. Check your Bentley manual in case my memory does not serve properly as I do not have mine with me at present.
OldRick
I have the Madness brace on my GP. I cannot give you a comparsion as this is the only one that I have used. I probably would have gone with the TSW brace but that would have ment some modification of my underbody panels which I was not willing to do. I can tell you that it has not added any additional NVH to the car. If anything it has made the NVH a little better. I also noticed, as you posted in your comparison, that passing while going over the crown of the road is greatly improved and worth the cost of the part just for that reason. I also felt that it increased understeer a bit and had to increase the setting of my Tarrett rear bar.
I did have a failure on one of the fasteners that connected to the front subframe pan. It sheared it right off. Before someone asks they were all torqued to 44 ft/lbs. I remedied the problem by buying four new stock bolts and cutting the center mount bolts to the appropriate length. I never liked the stock fasteners, as they were allen head bolts that rusted very quickly.
In order to use the stock bolt on the outer fix points the stock washer had to be cut off. Just a note that these bolts are a one time use item as they will stretch.
Steve
I have the Madness brace on my GP. I cannot give you a comparsion as this is the only one that I have used. I probably would have gone with the TSW brace but that would have ment some modification of my underbody panels which I was not willing to do. I can tell you that it has not added any additional NVH to the car. If anything it has made the NVH a little better. I also noticed, as you posted in your comparison, that passing while going over the crown of the road is greatly improved and worth the cost of the part just for that reason. I also felt that it increased understeer a bit and had to increase the setting of my Tarrett rear bar.
I did have a failure on one of the fasteners that connected to the front subframe pan. It sheared it right off. Before someone asks they were all torqued to 44 ft/lbs. I remedied the problem by buying four new stock bolts and cutting the center mount bolts to the appropriate length. I never liked the stock fasteners, as they were allen head bolts that rusted very quickly.
In order to use the stock bolt on the outer fix points the stock washer had to be cut off. Just a note that these bolts are a one time use item as they will stretch.
Steve
#119
02-06-2009, 08:10 PM
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Hey OldRick, thanks for the comparisons and great job. It is curious that I do not observe significant NVH increase with the X-brace. I wonder if there are some engine damping differences that can account for this.To be specific, I only have one half of the lower polyurethane insert installed. I found this to be a good compromise between engine movement management and NVH, I absolutely hated having both insert and the small pressed-in replacement bushing with the sleeve. I also have the top TSW damper installed.
I would say that I am much more sensitive to NVH than average, but maybe you are just even higher on the scale than I am.
Thanks again for sharing your experiences, this is very valuable to us.
I would say that I am much more sensitive to NVH than average, but maybe you are just even higher on the scale than I am.
Thanks again for sharing your experiences, this is very valuable to us.
#120
02-07-2009, 06:10 AM
mini_racer
Thank you for your clarification! Your memory serves you well. The Bently manual (pg 230-11 in '02-'06 edition) says 59Nm (44 ft/lbs) angle:90 deg +/- 15 deg. Honestly I was unfamiliar with this designation and just torqued the bolts to 44 ft/lbs thinking that this was a logical torque value for a 10mm bolt. If they had stated "+" ,as you did in your post, I would have had more of a clue. I will make the needed adjustments.
Thanks, Steve
Thank you for your clarification! Your memory serves you well. The Bently manual (pg 230-11 in '02-'06 edition) says 59Nm (44 ft/lbs) angle:90 deg +/- 15 deg. Honestly I was unfamiliar with this designation and just torqued the bolts to 44 ft/lbs thinking that this was a logical torque value for a 10mm bolt. If they had stated "+" ,as you did in your post, I would have had more of a clue. I will make the needed adjustments.
Thanks, Steve
The front X-brace mount bolts, which are part of the lower control arm bushing housing mount, are spec'd at 44ft-lbs + 90° ± 15°. For me this was close to about 55ft-lbs if you just do it in one shot. The rear of the X-brace utilizes one of the three rear front sub-frame mounting points on each side and is torqued to 74 ft-lbs. Check your Bentley manual in case my memory does not serve properly as I do not have mine with me at present.
#121
02-07-2009, 06:42 AM
Old Rick
Thanks for a great comparison! The only other alternative that I can think of is the GTT lower mid chassis brace.
http://www.gtt.uk.com/brakes.asp
With this you would be loosing the "X" brace factor but may be adding a little more mid chassis stiffness. I really don't know of any feedback on this item and I am not sure if it would fit under the underbody paneling on my GP. With the dollar exchange these days the prices are more palatable.
Rick did you notice any difference in under/over steer during your comparison of these products?
Thanks again, Steve
Thanks for a great comparison! The only other alternative that I can think of is the GTT lower mid chassis brace.
http://www.gtt.uk.com/brakes.asp
With this you would be loosing the "X" brace factor but may be adding a little more mid chassis stiffness. I really don't know of any feedback on this item and I am not sure if it would fit under the underbody paneling on my GP. With the dollar exchange these days the prices are more palatable.
Rick did you notice any difference in under/over steer during your comparison of these products?
Thanks again, Steve
#122
02-07-2009, 08:01 AM
Steve - that GTT brace sure looks like an OMP knock-off.
I found that turn-in was quicker and more precise with the X-brace, so I guess that is one form of less understeer, but it didn't seem to affect the balance of the car the way a stiffer rear bar setting does.
The X-brace also seemed to be controlling body motion better when setting a line into a turn as well, but again, didn't seem more tail-heavy or prone to wash-out like a stiffer rear bar creates.
Understeer/oversteer are actually pretty loosely-defined terms, given that they can be created and affected by very different parts of the suspension, and are attempts to describe some very dynamic behavior that varies from instant to instant .
I found that turn-in was quicker and more precise with the X-brace, so I guess that is one form of less understeer, but it didn't seem to affect the balance of the car the way a stiffer rear bar setting does.
The X-brace also seemed to be controlling body motion better when setting a line into a turn as well, but again, didn't seem more tail-heavy or prone to wash-out like a stiffer rear bar creates.
Understeer/oversteer are actually pretty loosely-defined terms, given that they can be created and affected by very different parts of the suspension, and are attempts to describe some very dynamic behavior that varies from instant to instant .
#124
02-07-2009, 09:26 AM
Roland of GTT readily admitted it, although he claims his is a stronger, stiffer version. He also says that his mid-chassis brace is at a different and better location than the M7 USS middle piece.
http://www.mini2.com/forum/gt-tuning...race-pics.html
http://www.mini2.com/forum/gt-tuning...-1st-pics.html
http://www.mini2.com/forum/gt-tuning...race-pics.html
http://www.mini2.com/forum/gt-tuning...-1st-pics.html
#125
02-07-2009, 10:29 AM