We've preached and preached this time and time again... Many people have asked us over the years why we don't really do anything around hp/torque mods. I thought I'd share this note with the NAM community, which sums it up quite nicely... Suspension, suspension, suspension...

"The suspension is awesome! It took me the two sessions Saturday morning to figure out how to read it. The car would start sliding unexpectedly. I realized that I had been using the roll of the car as an early indicator, and with this suspension the car stays flat. Also, the tires don't talk as loud. I don't get that, but its true. Once I figured out I needed to pay closer attention things got much better.

I had a couple indicators that the car is quicker - I'd say about 4 to 5 seconds a lap on the MSR 3.1 mile course. Scott (another MCS owner) would just about keep up with me with us both on street tires. He showed up this weekend with his new RA1s, and was disappointed that he couldn't stay with me. I think the new suspension was worth more in lap times than the RA1s.

Also, the final session on Sunday I left the grid just one car behind the fastest Exige in my run group. I had never been able to keep up with this guy. But by now I had figured out how to lean on the suspension pretty good. I got by the car that was between us a couple laps in the session. The Lotus maybe pulled a couple car lengths on me the entire session. I was very pleased.

And I usually average about 9.5 mpg on track days, but Sunday I averaged 8.7 mpg. I could brake later and harder, and still get on the gas at the same point as before. The chassis doesn't dive near as much under braking and settles very quickly as you let off the brakes and go to throttle at turn in.

I left the shocks at 12-8 the entire weekend. I was tempted to try 12-10, but there is 4th gear down hill slightly off camber turn (ricochet) where the car felt neutral at full throttle. In fact several cars looped there during the weekend. I didn't want to be another one. There were several slower corners where a little looser car would have been better.

Overall, I am really happy with the suspension. I think it will be another track event or two before I start to get the most out of it.

Thanks again"

So there you have it... 4-5 seconds a lap is a huge, HUGE difference. Nothing else changed on the car, other than the suspension upgrade and a good alignment. Same driver, same wheels/tires, same brakes, same road course.

 

well, maybe the driver got a little better at driving too... (?)

 

Driving with the new suspension, yup... This is a guy with more track miles in his MINI than us, though. He tracks 2-3 weekends a month and has in the MINI for 3+ years...

 

there is probobly something to be said for this... but in reality... shaving off 5 seconds in 1 weekend is huge.

 

i see... that does constitue driving consistency...

 

you'll find it's a total biatch to keep up with the smaller cars with no HP and great handling. One of my best sessions ever I just followed a mid 50s Alfa with about 2/3rds of my HP, and the only time I'd gain on him was on the straights. Ever try to follow a Sprite set up for handling? Sure, they don't push much HP, but sticking like glue means they go faster through the turns, have more exit speed, so the higher HP cars take a while to catch them after the turn. Watch Miatas running with Mustangs, and you'd be shocked at how well 1/3rd the HP can compete.

When you start with cars, everyone thinks HP is king. It's not. In fact, HP allows you to get into trouble much faster than cars with less HP. Throttle modulation becomes much more important and doing it wrong means your one of those guys who spin.

Yeah, the fastest cars have both HP and suspension, but it takes a very skilled driver to use both well. In the MC2 challenge at AMVIV last year, I was spanked but good by Scotts cooper. He had a better suspension tune and more skills, and it didn't matter I was pushing about 75 HP extra. He still wiped the track with me.

But suspension doesn't sound as good, or as fast as an aftermarket exhaust or the like. It just works better.

Matt

 

yah, but makes your car look good though, right?

 

This is one of the reasons I started the thread, actually - to discuss the merits of a good suspension vs. a whole lot of hp mods...

As the Dr. said, though - a great driver in a car with both a great suspension AND hp mods will be the fastest around the track. That is, if you can use both well. The problem is that most people start modding for hp and can't drive what they had before (at least in anything but a straight line, and even that takes finesse to do it right).

And, I'm not discounting the fact that we all get better each and every time we're on the track - so take that 4-5 second drop in lap times with a grain of salt. Still, that's a WHOLE heck of a lot to drop in one weekend. I'm sure he'll get even faster still...

If you start by modding the driver (HPDE, car control, AX), then work on the suspension, then brakes/wheels/tires, and THEN start looking for more power, well, that's our suggestion... Of course, we're biased towards track performance, but the same still applies for fun in the twisty bits (although, that brings a whole 'nother discussion up about taking it to the track).

 

well, im in the same boat. i dont do motor related mods until i know
my chassis (and me for that matter. ) can handle it, including brakes,
tires, etc.

 

No doubt, suspension rules!

 

Tons of dirt everywhere. Only "bling" mods on the outside are a "actual Size" sticker. In the cabin, I have a Momo shift ****, and car seats. The rest of the stuff on the car is for handling and power. But I also have a video switch so the daughter can watch pictures of herself. Oh, and a mini fini cup holder. I did get a euro parcel shelf, but it's out of the car because it makes it hard to get to all the wiring I"m playing with.

Matt

 

"You'd puke if you saw my car... "

i see.

 

I can attest that TSW has been saying this forever...I spoke with them about it a year ago. The reason I haven't done a significant power mod (like a pulley) is because I want to be good at driving my car as it is first, and the way I figure that out is the track. With a good alignment, I still can't out-drive my basically stock suspensioned car. What does that mean to me? Street tires and stock suspension for this season. Next season? I'll probably shop.

When will the power mods come? Who knows, but the best memories I have in my car are from right after it was aligned (DMH) and handling perfectly.

So, TSW - which setup is the fellow in the email running?

mb

 

even if I drove like crap.
1) Front camber plates.
2) Mild rear bar.

These really correct some flaws in the car as delivered from the factory.

Matt

 

In this case, the TSW/Leda Softcore suspension... But, there are certainly other options to make the MINI handle well and we're not the only ones doing it...

In other words, we build what we think works best, but there are lots 'o very fast MINIs at the track with all sorts of different suspension setups. I didn't really start this thread to toot our horn, but to just to make the point that SUSPENSION is the fastest way around the track!

Well, I mean, short of having an Ariel Atom (or insert the track weapon of your choice here) in your garage...

 

I saw an episode of Top Gear last night in which one of the hosts, James May, took driving lessons from Sir Jackie Stewart. In one day James' time had 20 seconds shaved off it. I forgot what track it was and James wasn't the best driver to start with, but the point is that all other variables constant, experience lowers lap times. So 20 seconds is astronomical I guess.

 

Ah, that's why I said to focus on the driver first...

Then, suspension... But, if you have a solid baseline for lap times at your local trac and drop it 4-5 seconds in a weekend, that's pretty freakin' huge...

 

What shock's are you recommending to go with the new springs?

 

Koni Yellows (if you're a Koni fan) or Bilstein SP's...

 

Thanks, that's what I thought... Was there just to many problems with the FSD's?

 

By all means, toot away; you all are one of if not the most respected vendor on this site. Why? Straight shooting and no manipulation. Not to mention incredible support in bad situations...coughIEcough...

So, I'd like to get into the specifics of this person's suspension (spring rates, settings, etc...) and why it was so effective, but if you think that is inappropriate for this thread, please PM me information on the setup, as I'm looking to start shopping for next season. Am I absolutely ready for this type of suspension? I don't know yet, but it doesn't hurt to learn.

mb

 

It is true that suspension and brakes changes are the most important modification when it comes to going fast. But just buying the right parts does not guarantee that the setup will be done right. That is where expertise comes into play. Ask yourself: Does your preferred vendor have the technical experience, tools, equipment, setup data, and test driver to do the job correctly?

Our back-to-back-to-back-to-back national championships in BMWCR JS and JP (the largest classes) were won with what we call "handling horsepower." Shop wisely...

 

FSD's = junk for anything but OEM springs.

 

Leda 24-way sport coilovers, 325 lb/in Leda special wind front springs, 325 lb/in Hypercoil rears, 19mm rear swaybar, Helix camber plates, H-Sport adjustable control arms, TSW's Powergrid adjustable swaybar endlinks (front and rear)...

Ride height lowered ~1.5"... Corner-weighted at 49.8% (close as we could get it), swaybars neutralized (via the Powergrid endlinks). Alignment was dialed in to -2.5* front, -1.5 rear, 0 toe front and slight toe in for the rear.

Why is it so effective? The spring rates work exceptionally well, the struts/shocks are valved SPECIFICALLY for this spring rate, and it's a total package... You can go higher on the spring rates and change the valving, but then it's a beating on the street - this is right at the edge of performance v. comfort for a dual use car...

 

Thread bookmarked! Thanks TSW for the discussion. I have some learning to do.