Suspension Cabrio front braces on non-cabrio?
#51
10-08-2007, 04:48 PM
Custom Mini Shop installed a set for me at MITM, took longer to walk over to the car then it did to install. Does it make a difference. Honestly I can't tell but then again there is also the strut brace, under strut brace and welded in roll bar. I can easily teeter on 3 wheels the Mini is so stiff. They add almost no weight and offer another tie in point for the strut towers.
#55
10-09-2007, 11:03 AM
I looked into these. Parts cost was around $300.
See http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...93&hg=51&fg=80
For my application with a welded in roll bar I didn't think it would add anything at all.
#56
10-11-2007, 03:57 AM
Where exactly do these convertable braces for the rear mount to? That RealOEM picture is a little vague. I am interested in getting any or all of these braces, and the OMP lower bar.
On a side note about the plasma booster that Randy of M7 mentioned, I have that (from Mini Mania) and it really does smooth out idle and throttle responce. The difference is like night and day to me.
On a side note about the plasma booster that Randy of M7 mentioned, I have that (from Mini Mania) and it really does smooth out idle and throttle responce. The difference is like night and day to me.
#57
10-13-2007, 06:24 PM
5th Gear
#58
02-11-2008, 09:17 AM
4th Gear
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They mount underneath the car. I don't think your car is going to have the mounting holes for these braces due to your car being built before the launch of the converts. Might have to drill!!
#61
02-15-2008, 12:53 PM
<Long opinionated post warning>
Yesterday I installed the Cabrio diagonal braces on my `05 S, and I couldn't be more pleased. The effects on the car are obvious and strongly positive, IMHO.
I heard one difference the moment I started the car. There is less engine vibration and noise transmitted into the cabin. Continuing down the road, I heard fewer plastic ticks and hiccups in the interior plastic, telling me that the frame is flexing and resonating less in response to my familiar bumps and tar-strips.
Heading up one of my frequent twisty roads, on every corner it was obvious that the whole car was twisting less under the loads of hard cornering. It feels "flatter", fights the wheel less, and holds its line more securely. Power application is smoother, both when launching and when exiting a corner.
Brake dive is also slightly lessened, and the brakes seem to be better-modulated – noticeable in control during hard braking. There is less frame flex when you hit it with the stresses of braking.
Now. some would question whether there is enough frame flex in the front end of a MINI to matter, and whether the available frame bracing options actually work. Or even whether a more rigid platform will make a suspension work better (it will).
All I can tell you is what I've found by experimentation. I've had the car just under 3 years, drive it on the same rural roads daily, and I feel that I have learned to be pretty good at evaluating suspension tweaking over the years. I'm certainly not an autocross champ, but much of what I've done to my car draws from autocrossing experience - mine and many others.
Also, I've optimized my car in specific ways for the specific use that I greatly enjoy - running fast around the twisty, hilly, mountainous areas of the Pacific Northwest. Every suspension mod I have made is in the direction of greater adhesion and control on often-bumpy unpredictable-cambered rural two-lane roads. My car is tweaked for real roads, not road-race courses.
If you take a close look at the engine bay of a MINI, it will quickly become apparent that all of the parts that make the car go and stop are attached to a pair of “fork-lift prongs” that stick a couple of feet forward from the cabin, and which are not particularly well supported.
The forces acting on these two lower sub-frame members include:
- engine torque; the more power, the more stress,
- impact forces through the lower suspension mounts from every bump you hit, with heavier wheels amplifying the stresses that hit frame,
- weight transfer, as when the car dives under hard braking, or rolls to the outside in a corner,
- gyroscopic vertical twisting forces generated when you try to turn with all those rapidly-rotating parts that have their axis laterally across the car.
So these sheet-metal structures are supposed to resist all of these strong stresses, and ideally, remain rigid enough that the driver can’t tell that the car is twisting and bending like crazy, under rapidly-changing dynamic loads from all directions. Fat chance.
It is my belief that the diagonal braces function mostly in compression, and that since they triangulate the lower sub-frame out in front of most of the loads that are applied to it, they go a long way toward resisting twisting forces, motion toward center, and vertical fore-and-aft flexing of the sub-frame. The effects I mention would all support that this is the case.
Will you feel all the effects I describe on your car? Beats me. I do think that when it comes to frame bracing, the effects are never negative, and that more braces in more places will result in positive synergy - that added braces reinforce each other and make their effects more than just the sum of the individual pieces.
Does all this stuff really make a MINI go faster? Well, it darn sure does if I’m driving it. Your mileage may vary…
My suspension mods:
- 9 lb. wheels and non-runflat tires. With Wilwood brakes, I've have shaved 59 lbs. of outboard, rotating, unsprung weight off the car. Lightweight wheels are the biggest single thing you can do to go faster in a MINI.
- 22mm rear sway bar set to Medium position.
- Koni FSD shocks. These keep the tires on the pavement on real roads better than anything else on the market, and turn that famous MINI ox-cart like handling into way-better-than-go-kart-like handling. And, ride comfort is much improved.
- Urethane rear engine mount - the torque mount. Keeps the engine from thrashing around like a wounded animal, which greatly enhances control of power application. The downside is that car car vibrates at idle, especially with the A/C on.
- Factory Limited-Slip Diff. I have the ASC always turned off except during major rain or snow conditions.
- OMP lower strut brace. IMHO, a lower brace is the most effective of the bracing options for a MINI. The down side is that you lose ground clearance - as much as an inch.
- OMP strut-top brace. If a lower brace is 100 on the Frame Bracing Effectiveness scale I just made up, then a good strut-top brace is maybe 25. I do like the OMP brace vs. others, because it a) indexes against the strut tower, not just the bolts, b) has hard-welded brackets with no hinges, and c) can be pre-loaded against the stress. On the other hand, no-one would call it pretty.
- MINI Cabrio diagonal braces. Best price-performer of the braces. For $50, it gets rid of a lot of frame twist and flexing. On the FBE scale, I'd call it a 75.
- I epoxy-foamed the under-frame channels running the length of the car. Wasn't worth it, but can't hurt.
A couple of minor comments on the brace design:
- The tab on the driver's side brace is useless. At least on my car, the wiring harness prevents re-installing the connector-holder on the tab. I used a wire-tie.
- Powder-coating the braces would be nice, as the factory paint chips off pretty easily.
- The indents on the forward side of the tubes are clearance for HID lights - don't attach anything to the downtubes there, as there is very little clearance.
I heard one difference the moment I started the car. There is less engine vibration and noise transmitted into the cabin. Continuing down the road, I heard fewer plastic ticks and hiccups in the interior plastic, telling me that the frame is flexing and resonating less in response to my familiar bumps and tar-strips.
Heading up one of my frequent twisty roads, on every corner it was obvious that the whole car was twisting less under the loads of hard cornering. It feels "flatter", fights the wheel less, and holds its line more securely. Power application is smoother, both when launching and when exiting a corner.
Brake dive is also slightly lessened, and the brakes seem to be better-modulated – noticeable in control during hard braking. There is less frame flex when you hit it with the stresses of braking.
Now. some would question whether there is enough frame flex in the front end of a MINI to matter, and whether the available frame bracing options actually work. Or even whether a more rigid platform will make a suspension work better (it will).
All I can tell you is what I've found by experimentation. I've had the car just under 3 years, drive it on the same rural roads daily, and I feel that I have learned to be pretty good at evaluating suspension tweaking over the years. I'm certainly not an autocross champ, but much of what I've done to my car draws from autocrossing experience - mine and many others.
Also, I've optimized my car in specific ways for the specific use that I greatly enjoy - running fast around the twisty, hilly, mountainous areas of the Pacific Northwest. Every suspension mod I have made is in the direction of greater adhesion and control on often-bumpy unpredictable-cambered rural two-lane roads. My car is tweaked for real roads, not road-race courses.
If you take a close look at the engine bay of a MINI, it will quickly become apparent that all of the parts that make the car go and stop are attached to a pair of “fork-lift prongs” that stick a couple of feet forward from the cabin, and which are not particularly well supported.
The forces acting on these two lower sub-frame members include:
- engine torque; the more power, the more stress,
- impact forces through the lower suspension mounts from every bump you hit, with heavier wheels amplifying the stresses that hit frame,
- weight transfer, as when the car dives under hard braking, or rolls to the outside in a corner,
- gyroscopic vertical twisting forces generated when you try to turn with all those rapidly-rotating parts that have their axis laterally across the car.
So these sheet-metal structures are supposed to resist all of these strong stresses, and ideally, remain rigid enough that the driver can’t tell that the car is twisting and bending like crazy, under rapidly-changing dynamic loads from all directions. Fat chance.
It is my belief that the diagonal braces function mostly in compression, and that since they triangulate the lower sub-frame out in front of most of the loads that are applied to it, they go a long way toward resisting twisting forces, motion toward center, and vertical fore-and-aft flexing of the sub-frame. The effects I mention would all support that this is the case.
Will you feel all the effects I describe on your car? Beats me. I do think that when it comes to frame bracing, the effects are never negative, and that more braces in more places will result in positive synergy - that added braces reinforce each other and make their effects more than just the sum of the individual pieces.
Does all this stuff really make a MINI go faster? Well, it darn sure does if I’m driving it. Your mileage may vary…
My suspension mods:
- 9 lb. wheels and non-runflat tires. With Wilwood brakes, I've have shaved 59 lbs. of outboard, rotating, unsprung weight off the car. Lightweight wheels are the biggest single thing you can do to go faster in a MINI.
- 22mm rear sway bar set to Medium position.
- Koni FSD shocks. These keep the tires on the pavement on real roads better than anything else on the market, and turn that famous MINI ox-cart like handling into way-better-than-go-kart-like handling. And, ride comfort is much improved.
- Urethane rear engine mount - the torque mount. Keeps the engine from thrashing around like a wounded animal, which greatly enhances control of power application. The downside is that car car vibrates at idle, especially with the A/C on.
- Factory Limited-Slip Diff. I have the ASC always turned off except during major rain or snow conditions.
- OMP lower strut brace. IMHO, a lower brace is the most effective of the bracing options for a MINI. The down side is that you lose ground clearance - as much as an inch.
- OMP strut-top brace. If a lower brace is 100 on the Frame Bracing Effectiveness scale I just made up, then a good strut-top brace is maybe 25. I do like the OMP brace vs. others, because it a) indexes against the strut tower, not just the bolts, b) has hard-welded brackets with no hinges, and c) can be pre-loaded against the stress. On the other hand, no-one would call it pretty.
- MINI Cabrio diagonal braces. Best price-performer of the braces. For $50, it gets rid of a lot of frame twist and flexing. On the FBE scale, I'd call it a 75.
- I epoxy-foamed the under-frame channels running the length of the car. Wasn't worth it, but can't hurt.
A couple of minor comments on the brace design:
- The tab on the driver's side brace is useless. At least on my car, the wiring harness prevents re-installing the connector-holder on the tab. I used a wire-tie.
- Powder-coating the braces would be nice, as the factory paint chips off pretty easily.
- The indents on the forward side of the tubes are clearance for HID lights - don't attach anything to the downtubes there, as there is very little clearance.
Last edited by OldRick; 07-31-2008 at 03:26 PM.
#63
02-15-2008, 01:25 PM
Where exactly do these convertable braces for the rear mount to? That RealOEM picture is a little vague. I am interested in getting any or all of these braces, and the OMP lower bar.
On a side note about the plasma booster that Randy of M7 mentioned, I have that (from Mini Mania) and it really does smooth out idle and throttle responce. The difference is like night and day to me.
On a side note about the plasma booster that Randy of M7 mentioned, I have that (from Mini Mania) and it really does smooth out idle and throttle responce. The difference is like night and day to me.
Oh you've done it now . Anyone admiting that the Plasma Booster actually does something will be branded as a shill for the Evil Empire
I bought mine before I even met Peter and its still on the car. We do not sell them any more due to the grief we got back in the day but I think Mini Mania and a few others are still doing fine selling them. Good luck and be brave Randy
M7 Tuning
#65
02-15-2008, 04:02 PM
6th Gear
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Oregon, USA
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Yesterday I installed the Cabrio diagonal braces on my `05 S, and I couldn't be more pleased. The effects on the car are obvious and strongly positive, IMHO.
I heard one difference the moment I started the car. There is less engine vibration and noise transmitted into the cabin. Continuing down the road, I heard fewer plastic ticks and hiccups in the interior plastic, telling me that the frame is flexing and resonating less in response to my familiar bumps and tar-strips.
Heading up one of my frequent twisty roads, on every corner it was obvious that the whole car was twisting less under the loads of hard cornering. It feels "flatter", fights the wheel less, and holds its line more securely. Power application is smoother, both when launching and when exiting a corner.
Brake dive is also slightly lessened, and the brakes seem to be better-modulated – noticeable in control during hard braking. There is less frame flex when you hit it with the stresses of braking.
Now. some would question whether there is enough frame flex in the front end of a MINI to matter, and whether the available frame bracing options actually work. Or even whether a more rigid platform will make a suspension work better (it will).
All I can tell you is what I've found by experimentation. I've had the car just under 3 years, drive it on the same rural roads daily, and I feel that I have learned to be pretty good at evaluating suspension tweaking over the years. I'm certainly not an autocross champ, but much of what I've done to my car draws from autocrossing experience - mine and many others.
Also, I've optimized my car in specific ways for the specific use that I greatly enjoy - running fast around the twisty, hilly, mountainous areas of the Pacific Northwest. Every suspension mod I have made is in the direction of greater adhesion and control on often-bumpy unpredictable-cambered rural two-lane roads. My car is tweaked for real roads, not road-race courses.
If you take a close look at the engine bay of a MINI, it will quickly become apparent that all of the parts that make the car go and stop are attached to a pair of “fork-lift prongs” that stick a couple of feet forward from the cabin, and which are not particularly well supported.
The forces acting on these two lower sub-frame members include:
- engine torque; the more power, the more stress,
- impact forces through the lower suspension mounts from every bump you hit, with heavier wheels amplifying the stresses that hit frame,
- weight transfer, as when the car dives under hard braking, or rolls to the outside in a corner,
- gyroscopic vertical twisting forces generated when you try to turn with all those rapidly-rotating parts that have their axis laterally across the car.
So these sheet-metal structures are supposed to resist all of these strong stresses, and ideally, remain rigid enough that the driver can’t tell that the car if twisting and bending like crazy, under rapidly-changing dynamic loads from all directions. Fat chance.
It is my belief that the diagonal braces function mostly in compression, and that since they triangulate the lower sub-frame out in front of most of the loads that are applied to it, they go a long way toward resisting twisting forces, motion toward center, and vertical fore-and-aft flexing of the sub-frame. The effects I mention would all support that this is the case.
Will you feel all the effects I describe on your car? Beats me. I do think that when it comes to frame bracing, the effects are never negative, and that more braces in more places will result in positive synergy - that added braces reinforce each other and make their effects more than just the sum of the individual pieces.
Does all this stuff really make a MINI go faster? Well, it darn sure does if I’m driving it. Your mileage may vary…
My suspension mods:
- 9 lb. wheels and non-runflat tires. When my Wilwoods are installed next week, I'll have shaved 59 lbs. of unsprung weight off the car. This is the biggest single thing you can do to go faster in a MINI.
- 22mm rear sway bar set to Medium position.
- Koni FSD shocks. These keep the tires on the pavement on real roads better than anything else on the market, and turn that famous MINI ox-cart like handling into way-better-than-a-go-kart-like handling.
- Urethane rear engine mount - the torque mount. Keeps the engine from thrashing around like a wounded animal, which greatly enhances control of power application. The downside is that car car vibrates at idle, especially with the A/C on.
- Factory Limited-Slip Diff. I have the ASC always turned off except during major rain or snow conditions.
- OMP lower strut brace. IMHO, a lower brace is the most effective of the bracing options.
- OMP strut-top brace. If a lower brace is 100 on the Frame Bracing Effectiveness scale I just made up,
then a good strut-top brace is maybe 50. I do like the OMP brace vs. others, because it a) indexes against the strut tower, not just the bolts, b) has hard-welded brackets, with no hinging, and c) can be pre-loaded against the stress. On the other hand, no-one would call it pretty.
- MINI Cabrio diagonal braces. Best price-performer of the braces. For $50, it gets rid of a lot of frame twist and flexing. On the FBE scale, I'd call it a 75.
- I epoxy-foamed the under-frame channels running the length of the car. Wasn't worth it, but can't hurt.
A couple of minor comments on the brace design:
- The tab on the driver's side brace is useless. At least on my car, the wiring harness prevents re-installing the connector-holder on the tab. I used a wire-tie.
- Powder-coating the braces would be nice, as the factory paint chips off pretty easily.
- The indents on the forward side of the tubes are clearance for HID lights - don't attach anything to the downtubes there, as there is very little clearance.
I heard one difference the moment I started the car. There is less engine vibration and noise transmitted into the cabin. Continuing down the road, I heard fewer plastic ticks and hiccups in the interior plastic, telling me that the frame is flexing and resonating less in response to my familiar bumps and tar-strips.
Heading up one of my frequent twisty roads, on every corner it was obvious that the whole car was twisting less under the loads of hard cornering. It feels "flatter", fights the wheel less, and holds its line more securely. Power application is smoother, both when launching and when exiting a corner.
Brake dive is also slightly lessened, and the brakes seem to be better-modulated – noticeable in control during hard braking. There is less frame flex when you hit it with the stresses of braking.
Now. some would question whether there is enough frame flex in the front end of a MINI to matter, and whether the available frame bracing options actually work. Or even whether a more rigid platform will make a suspension work better (it will).
All I can tell you is what I've found by experimentation. I've had the car just under 3 years, drive it on the same rural roads daily, and I feel that I have learned to be pretty good at evaluating suspension tweaking over the years. I'm certainly not an autocross champ, but much of what I've done to my car draws from autocrossing experience - mine and many others.
Also, I've optimized my car in specific ways for the specific use that I greatly enjoy - running fast around the twisty, hilly, mountainous areas of the Pacific Northwest. Every suspension mod I have made is in the direction of greater adhesion and control on often-bumpy unpredictable-cambered rural two-lane roads. My car is tweaked for real roads, not road-race courses.
If you take a close look at the engine bay of a MINI, it will quickly become apparent that all of the parts that make the car go and stop are attached to a pair of “fork-lift prongs” that stick a couple of feet forward from the cabin, and which are not particularly well supported.
The forces acting on these two lower sub-frame members include:
- engine torque; the more power, the more stress,
- impact forces through the lower suspension mounts from every bump you hit, with heavier wheels amplifying the stresses that hit frame,
- weight transfer, as when the car dives under hard braking, or rolls to the outside in a corner,
- gyroscopic vertical twisting forces generated when you try to turn with all those rapidly-rotating parts that have their axis laterally across the car.
So these sheet-metal structures are supposed to resist all of these strong stresses, and ideally, remain rigid enough that the driver can’t tell that the car if twisting and bending like crazy, under rapidly-changing dynamic loads from all directions. Fat chance.
It is my belief that the diagonal braces function mostly in compression, and that since they triangulate the lower sub-frame out in front of most of the loads that are applied to it, they go a long way toward resisting twisting forces, motion toward center, and vertical fore-and-aft flexing of the sub-frame. The effects I mention would all support that this is the case.
Will you feel all the effects I describe on your car? Beats me. I do think that when it comes to frame bracing, the effects are never negative, and that more braces in more places will result in positive synergy - that added braces reinforce each other and make their effects more than just the sum of the individual pieces.
Does all this stuff really make a MINI go faster? Well, it darn sure does if I’m driving it. Your mileage may vary…
My suspension mods:
- 9 lb. wheels and non-runflat tires. When my Wilwoods are installed next week, I'll have shaved 59 lbs. of unsprung weight off the car. This is the biggest single thing you can do to go faster in a MINI.
- 22mm rear sway bar set to Medium position.
- Koni FSD shocks. These keep the tires on the pavement on real roads better than anything else on the market, and turn that famous MINI ox-cart like handling into way-better-than-a-go-kart-like handling.
- Urethane rear engine mount - the torque mount. Keeps the engine from thrashing around like a wounded animal, which greatly enhances control of power application. The downside is that car car vibrates at idle, especially with the A/C on.
- Factory Limited-Slip Diff. I have the ASC always turned off except during major rain or snow conditions.
- OMP lower strut brace. IMHO, a lower brace is the most effective of the bracing options.
- OMP strut-top brace. If a lower brace is 100 on the Frame Bracing Effectiveness scale I just made up,
then a good strut-top brace is maybe 50. I do like the OMP brace vs. others, because it a) indexes against the strut tower, not just the bolts, b) has hard-welded brackets, with no hinging, and c) can be pre-loaded against the stress. On the other hand, no-one would call it pretty.
- MINI Cabrio diagonal braces. Best price-performer of the braces. For $50, it gets rid of a lot of frame twist and flexing. On the FBE scale, I'd call it a 75.
- I epoxy-foamed the under-frame channels running the length of the car. Wasn't worth it, but can't hurt.
A couple of minor comments on the brace design:
- The tab on the driver's side brace is useless. At least on my car, the wiring harness prevents re-installing the connector-holder on the tab. I used a wire-tie.
- Powder-coating the braces would be nice, as the factory paint chips off pretty easily.
- The indents on the forward side of the tubes are clearance for HID lights - don't attach anything to the downtubes there, as there is very little clearance.
#68
02-15-2008, 05:05 PM
#72
02-18-2008, 12:32 PM
Kind to hard to tell whether they are still in business. The web site still has info from from June of last year, that "...we have been on the road traveling ..."
I've sent email to the two addresses visible on the site, but no response so far...
Any other sources for nice eyes for the MINI?
I've sent email to the two addresses visible on the site, but no response so far...
Any other sources for nice eyes for the MINI?
#73
02-18-2008, 03:43 PM
Turbius Maximus
Join Date: Mar 2004
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Kind to hard to tell whether they are still in business. The web site still has info from from June of last year, that "...we have been on the road traveling ..."
I've sent email to the two addresses visible on the site, but no response so far...
Any other sources for nice eyes for the MINI?
I've sent email to the two addresses visible on the site, but no response so far...
Any other sources for nice eyes for the MINI?
Not sure if MLE got yer email. I'll check when she get's home.