My JCW went to the dealer on a flat bed - the SEl was blinking and threw a P code for a heavy engine misfire. The car had next to no acceleration and was sounding like a bad exhaust valve spitting through a leaky exhaust. The dealer first said they had to replace the coil, wires and plugs. Next call was that an injector was faulty. Latest info call was that they sampled the fuel from the tank and found water contamination. They will clean the tank and put in fresh fuel. The SA made a statement that included the words "not covered under warranty" but could not explain the scope of the statement at this time because he needs further information.

Other posts on earlier threads discuss fuel contamination. It seems like the engine processes the water out in a tankful or two and the ECU can adjust for "weak" (under graded?) gas.

Queries: Can water contaminated fuel be a possible cause of the original problem, can it have caused the bad hig tension and injector problems and is it reasonable to purge the vehicle's gas tank?

Any help is appreciated. I need to know whether to make an appointment with a bankruptcy attorney

 

Water in the tank can definitely make the car run like crap, but it wouldn't kill the coil, wires and plugs, nor should it kill an injector - any big crap should be caught by the fuel filter, and water wouldn't kill it.
If the issue was the water, I'd say all the other diagnoses (is that plural for diagnosis?) were incorrect, and you shouldn't have to pay for their incorrect diagnoses - just the draining/purging of the tank. If the bad gas is confirmed (get a sample) you can go after the station that sold you the gas - keep your receipts!

 

Last month I filled the tank just before a track day, (1/2 tank). The car ran fine for the 2 miles from the gas station to the track. during the first 20 min session it began to miss under load and eventually went into "limp home mode". It wouldn't take any boost and acted like it was running on only 2 cylinders. After letting it sit in the pits for 10 min. it ran fine after re-starting. I suspected bad gas (no loose wires under the hood) and added a can of octane booster to the tank. It did run better in the next session but eventually started to miss again and went into limp home mode. The code reader said "multiple random engine misfire". It ran fine on the drive home and has not did this again (3 tanks later). I did change the spark plugs afterword but I am convinced it was the gas. Either he filled it with Regular or it had water in it. The fact that the octane booster helped leads me to think it was the 1/2 tank of Regular that caused the problem.

Hope this helps you.

 

If you have a quantity of water in your tank and it gets into the fuel injection system, you will have some very serious repairs in the immediate future. The gas filter is not a water separator. However, if you have the receipts for the purchase, you likely will have recourse against the station that sold the bad gas (at least you would in California). You might also have some coverage from your auto insurance policy's comprehensive section.

 

Can you expand on 'serious repairs'?
Other than throwing in some 'gas dryer' or draining the tank, I'm not aware of any 'repair' that would be required due to water in the gas.

 

In a worst case, every part in the injection system that has precise tolerances could need to be replaced. Water in the tank is not pure distilled water in small (<1 ounce) quantities. If water gets into a gas stations tank, it is because of a breach in the tank wall. Dirt, possible corrosive compounds, and, and, and get into the mix. The filter in the line between the tank and the fuel injection system is not designed to remove all of that potential garbage.

 

There was a recent MINI TSB put out which I think may be relevant for you especially if you filled up with fuel that contained ethanol.

http://www.alldata.com/tsb/BMW/11464...06/130306.html

This is one of the reasons why I don't put fuel with more than 5% ethanol in my car and even then, I only buy it if the service station is relatively new and has decent turnover

 

I admit I'm way down there on the tech food chain, so please forgive me if I am out of turn. I understand that in a diesel engine, fuel injection components can be severely damaged from water in the fuel because it generates steam under the high compression necessary for ignition. A gas engine does not have this problem because of relatively low compression and high efficieny of fuel burn. The problem with these engines is the generation of rust in the injector nozzles. Water in gasoline is probably unavoidable (doesn't the vehicle's fuel tank normally condense from air temperature variants?) One bad tankful of gas should run through the system. Sure, the engine will run somewhat poorly until the remaining water is diluted with the next fill up, but should not produce a system wide malfunction. I would imagine this level of failure could occur with chronic use of contaminated fuel building higher and higher levels in the tank bottom.

I say this at my peril. Please be kind.

 

A couple of comments:

1. Water in a diesel engine causes damage in a number of areas: a.) to the precise tolerances of the injection pump because of problems with the contaminents (same problem with storage tank breach introducing garbage into the fuel) abraiding the pump internals, b.) same issue for the injectors (abraision of machined surfaces), c.) damage to the cylinder internals (blown head gasket is the most likely event) from the introduction of water into the fuel mix, d.) if there is a fuel pump in the main tank that is supplying fuel to the injection pump, it gets damaged as well from the garbage that comes along with the water once the gas station's tank wall has been breached.

2. Water in a gas engine that is introduced from a contaminated batch of gasoline will cause the same problems as with a diesel engine because of the precise tolerances that are abraided by the garbage that comes with the water once the gas station's tank seal is breached. There is less pressure involved in the gasoline engine's fuel injection system, but the parts are not as robust (but the tolerances are similar), so a little bit of garbage goes a long way to causing problems.

3. The additive package that is mixed into the gasoline by the distributor will generally have compounds that blend water from condensation into the fuel. Condensate is a very tiny amount (< ~1 milliliter per 13 gallon tankful in the MINI); also, the sealed emission control system doesn't introduce water from ambient air humidity the way non-sealed fuel systems did in the past - there is a reason for the CEL if you forget to put gas cap back on the filler after re-filling the gas tank....

Hopefully I wasn't too harsh?

 

Not harsh at all - but hugely informative. I'm here to learn from those who know. Thank you caminifan. I should be getting the post mortem from the dealer today or tomorrow, so I'll post anything helpful they say.

 

That is for emissions AFAIK - i.e. not allowing fuel vapors to escape. Gasoline isn't hygroscopic like hydraulic fluid. Though I guess it can serve as a humidity barrier as well..

 

Did you notice that the tsb did not recommend the replacement of these? Seems to me that if they replace a part that doesn't need replacing the have no business charging you for it.

 

Both emissions directly (closed system to prevent HC emissions from evaporation as you posted) as well as indirectly (prevent absorption of water from humidity). Regarding hygroscopic-ness, gasoline doesn't have to absorb water. Water can exist all by itself and screw up the fuel injection system completely on its own.

 

Definitely have the TSB printed out as back-up to dispute the charge for ignition system parts. (Especially if you can't get someone else to pay for the replacement.)

 

Well, latest word from the dealer is that 2 injectors pooped. The entire repair is on the house, except for $150.00 to drain the tank. The SA mentioned that they have had a lot of problems with contaminated gas fouling the injection system as well as ethanol problems, for which he said BMW recommends varying the octane on fill ups between 89 and 91 (I believe that's a new one). The water contamination still doesn't make sense, though. Does this mean that every time I fill up my injection system is in potential jeopardy? (Didn't get any responses to this thread indicating a similar breakdown experience). If so, maybe there's a way to add an inline Raycor water separating filter? Got to be cheaper than replacing injectors time after time.

I'll speak directly with the tech tomorrow who worked on the vehicle. Thanks all of you.

 

I find it amazing that the dealerships still can figure this out. It has nothing to do with octane and everything to do with ethanol. In tsb SI M 13 01 06 it says:

"Under certain environmental conditions, mainly lower ambient temperatures, ethanol separates from gasoline/alcohol mixture and absorb water. The ethanol absorbed water molecules are heavier then gasoline or ethanol, they remain at the bottom of fuel tank and when introduced into combustion process they tend to form an extremely lean mixture resulting in misfire, rough idle and cold starting problems.

Certain materials, commonly used with gasoline are totally incompatible with alcohols. When these materials come in contact with ethanol, they may dissolve in the fuel, which may damage engine components and may result in poor vehicle drivability."

The ethanol % that some people have been reported been getting is clearly a problem. It could be that the ethanol isn't getting mixed properly or too much is being added. As noted in the tsb, ethanol fuel is also more prone to contamination. Then there are other factors. What if the gas stations tank is running low? Or what if their tanks were recently refilled? This would all increase the likelyhood of getting some dissolve crap in your tank, which could very easily clog up a fuel injector.

 

I'm betting that the water in the gas wasn't very pure. Misfiring can ruin the plugs might also damage the coil pack. Injectors yep they could be toasted too. Now how the wires went bad baffles me. Years ago I bought a tank load of crap at a gas station. Old school no tech car with a carb, so I was able to clean it out myself for the cost of a carb kit & new fuel filter. Since that day I always get a receipt, you never know it could help.

 

If you have problems with water contamination of the gas, a water separator would be a good thing. The question is where to mount the separator in the engine compartment? When I was driving my 1978 Diesel Rabbit (1978 to 1990), the water separator that I had was about the size of a half gallon milk container. Fortunately, there was available space to mount the separator.

 

Well, I spent a while in a good conversation yesterday with the SM. It turned out that there were numerous problems that confounded the diagnosis. After replacing the secondary ignition, an injector and cleaning out the fuel tank, the car still ran poorly. They eventually traced the problem to a broken valve spring. (Look at post #1) I lack the experience to comment on the diagnostic methods invovled, but I earnestly believe that the techs at the dealership are very very good at what they do. But, on topic, the problem was not with the gas. The Sm commented that it was a good thing they cleaned it out, otherwise, I wouldn't have made it home. I'm not buying this, but paid the bill, if for anything, to build a good relationship with the service dept.

The

 

Well, I spent a while in a good conversation yesterday with the SM. It turned out that there were numerous problems that confounded the diagnosis. After replacing the secondary ignition, an injector and cleaning out the fuel tank, the car still ran poorly. They eventually traced the problem to a broken valve spring. (Look at post #1) I lack the experience to comment on the diagnostic methods invovled, but I earnestly believe that the techs at the dealership are very very good at what they do. But, on topic, the problem was not with the gas. The Sm commented that it was a good thing they cleaned it out, otherwise, I wouldn't have made it home. I'm not buying this, but paid the bill, if for anything, to build a good relationship with the service dept.

The contamination in my case was purely emulsified water - as opposed to free water at the

 

Well, I spent a while in a good conversation yesterday with the SM. It turned out that there were numerous problems that confounded the diagnosis. After replacing the secondary ignition, an injector and cleaning out the fuel tank, the car still ran poorly. They eventually traced the problem to a broken valve spring. (Look at post #1) I lack the experience to comment on the diagnostic methods invovled, but I earnestly believe that the techs at the dealership are very very good at what they do. But, on topic, the problem was not with the gas. The Sm commented that it was a good thing they cleaned it out, otherwise, I wouldn't have made it home. I'm not buying this, but paid the bill, if for anything, to build a good relationship with the service dept.

The contamination in my case was purely emulsified water - as opposed to free water at the tank bottom. There were no particulates. The SM agreed that emulsified water woul;d not

 

Well, I spent a while in a good conversation yesterday with the SM. It turned out that there were numerous problems that confounded the diagnosis. After replacing the secondary ignition, an injector and cleaning out the fuel tank, the car still ran poorly. They eventually traced the problem to a broken valve spring. (Look at post #1) I lack the experience to comment on the diagnostic methods employed, but I earnestly believe that the techs at the dealership are very very good at what they do. But, on topic, the problem was not with the gas. The SM commented that it was a good thing they cleaned out the tank, otherwise, I wouldn't have made it home. I'm not buying this, but paid the bill, if for anything, to build a good relationship with the service dept.

The contamination in my case was purely emulsified water - as opposed to free water at the tank bottom. There were no particulates. The SM agreed that emulsified water would not scour the injectors and its likely effect, if any - by itself - would be to make the engine run rough until refilled. Also, the fuel filter will remove particulates. The real problem with the water is when you add gas with methanol. It combines with water to form sulphuric acid which destroys the fuel pump and possibly downstream components. It also forms globules that resemble styrofoam pellets that clog the fuel system. Fortunately, I live in an area which does not add ethanol (MTBE is good for the car but pollutes well water - guess I'd rather undergo chemo than hurt my Mini ) and my fuel showed no signs of it (Mini has a test kit. If they find ethanol, they redirect you to the service station for your remedy. Good Luck with that ).

As for the water separator, good point about the space issue camini. I haven't examined this yet. However, I always believed that dry gas kills fuel injectors. The SM says this is a myth and approved adding it with each tankful. I suspect this will likely take care of future water issues, but will keep a Raycor in mind.

 

In California, if you suspect water in your gas and can trace the contamination to a specific Gas Station you should call your local County Weights and Measures department, usually in the same office as the Agriculture Commissioner, every California County has both. They regulate octane, water contamination, signage at stations, and proper measurement of fuel delivered, among many other things. They can be a real help. Based often on one complaint they will take samples at the station and send a complete report to you within a week. This can really help any small claims suits you may file.