Brought my JCW into the dealer several times under warranty repair of intermittent problems such as door locks not actuating, rattles, a/c shut-off, etc. The tech takes a test drive or pushes the switches a couple of times and if he can't replicate the problem, the answer is essentially "I can't find anything wrong and can't make a repair." Is it BMW policy not to take the customer's word on warranty claims? If so, anybody have a tip for how to circumvent this treatment?

 

I had low signal strength on my cable TV. So low it was useless for three days. Tech came out and could not replicate it. Signal was fine. What was he to do? There was nothing to do since at that particular time, the signal was fine. Next night, low signal again.

If the tech can't replicate the problem, what do you want him to do? Are you looking for free parts? Not going to happen. I know its a pain but I doubt any car maker will give you free parts on your word.

 

Intermittent problems suck.:impatient Unless they can replicated it, it's pretty tough to know WHAT to fix. It sucks for the customer, but it sucks for them, too.
e.g. door locks not actuating - do they replace the toggle switch? wiring harness? door locks? Everything?
rattles - disassemble and reassemble the dash and hope it stops?

Best bet is to isolate when it happens (does it rattle over potholes/bumps? mostly when it's cold?) and bring it in when conditions are similar.
My dealer is pretty good about those things - always goes for a test drive to identify noises, etc.
Good luck!

 

I had this same discussion last night with a friend who is a tech. I told him that my dealers favorite line is "could not replicate issue". Happens to me alllll the time.

I know that they can eventually figure out the problem.. but at the same time.. for someone who is paid hourly, I'm sure they don't want to spend 7 hours checking every single little thing to figure out why my drivers door decides to lock me in/out sometimes, but not all the time.

Viscious circle

 

Your dealer must have documentated the problem and that he could not find it again. Should it re-occur, I would imagine that you will have an excellent case for warranty work...even within a reasonable amount of time passing after warranty expiration. Intermittant problems are the biggest pain....I work in electronics as a hobby...happens a lot!

On a different note...I had a small problem on a used Mini that I did not even buy from the servicing dealer....Squeaking pass window. He could not REPLICATE it, but replaced the regulator anyway, telling me that that was a common complaint!! GREAT SERVICE!

 

Well, sort of like Gizzer's experience. When my door driver's door won't lock sometimes, but my pass door locks all the time, I think one can logically isolate the bad part(s) (ie the actuator or wire connectors). You know it won't be the dash switch or anything on the pass side. I have a bad metallic exhaust rattle on decel, which my guess is a broken baffle in one of the mufflers. One could argue why should the dealer give me 2 mufflers when only 1 is bad, but he can't isolate which one? That is a point.

But the other side of the coin is why should I absorb the cost by driving a car that does not perform to spec? The exhaust isn't supposed to rattle. BMW sold the warranty with the car. If it takes two parts to fix one problem, so be it. Anyway, if the tech hears the rattle on the test drive but can't recreate it in the shop, he'll have to agree there's a repair needed, make his best guess as to which part(s) to replace and go hit or miss until fixed. Could cost BMW most of an exhaust system just to fix one broken part. But, that's just another point of view.

I guess the real issue comes down to whether the dealer should have a policy to honor the customer's complaint as honest and attempt the repair of an interrmitent problem on their say-so, or be cautious of bad people who want to replace their entire car for free. IMHO, this may be like an ER doc trying to decide whether the patient claiming pain really hurts or is just drug seeking. Sometimes he can tell clinically, sometimes he'll know because the patient is a frequent flier and the rest of the time be either right or wrong: Be suspicious and withhold drugs from a legitimate pain patient or be caring and sometimes give drugs to a junkie. Tough choice for some.

 

A lot of what you say is true from the customer's perspective. Being a customer, I can't argue that. However, I can argue the other side from the dealer's perspective.

MINI dealers only get paid on warranty work if MINIUSA reimburses them. Some dealers don't like warranty work because they can make more money doing non-warranty work.

When push comes to shove, they are running a business to make money ... not track down gremlins. So, if it takes a tech 8 hours to find a small part broken in your door, how much is MINIUSA going to reimburse them? NOT for 8 hours of labor but the price of the part and a standard charge for replacement.

I know it stinks but that is the problem with "intermittent" problems. It all comes down to

They last time I was at the dealer for service (just the yearly oil change), I noticed a new sign with the rates. If I remember correctly it clearly stated a rate for repair work and a rate for diagnosis service that wasn't part of warranty work. It looked pretty clear to me that if you pressed them to track down a gremlin, they would do it ... and charge you for their time. Maybe that is a new approach some dealers are taking. The bottom line is always money.

 

Chows - you speak well and validly for the othe rpoint of view. I'll risk a question that I don't see too much: Is there a compromise to be had? I think the dealer and the customer should have a symbiotic relationship where they look out for each other's interests for a common good (Mini karhma ) and not the them or me attitude that sometimes seems prevalent. Looking at the quoted part of your post, isn't it fair to ask the dealer to throw parts at the problem at BMW's expense for the parts and labor and skip over the gremlin hunt. If the part solves the problem, great for everyone. If not, do it again. It may be up to thoughtful parties to come to an agreement on when the process is getting out of hand. I remember the days when TV's and radios had vacuum tubes . The drug store test meter wasn't usually reliable, so first you'd by a 5U4 and if replacing it didn't work, then you'd buy the next most likely culprit - an 8GXA until the set either worked or it became more economical to buy a new radio.

 

There is something of a compromise - a limited diagnostic fee. I had a recent experience with rumbling that could be felt through the car when I put the a/t in reverse. I started freaking out thinking that I had problems with my transmission, or the torque converter was defective, and, and, and. Drove to the dealer (MINI of Mountain View) and they called out a tech to go for a ride with me. Prior to leaving for the ride, the tech asked for a certain code to be entered on their timecard for the ride (SA had to make the entry). I have had a similar experience with other cars I have owned where the factory will authorize a 15 minute attempt to diagnose the problem that the customer is complaining about.

Now, what was the problem with my transmission? The a/c was kicking in at almost the precise moment that I was putting the car in reverse. For some reason (which I can't quite figure out), the vibration is amplified when the car is in reverse. And, it definitely was the a/c - after experiencing the vibration/rumble, the tech turned off the a/c and asked me to reverse the car again. Wonder of wonders - no rumble (and me with a bit of a red face....).

 

I worked with an ace engineer in the video business a few years back. If a tape machine had an intermittant problem they'd wheel it back into the shop and proceed to bang the he!! out of it in hopes of making it really break all the way. Then he could fix it. Mostly they were looking for cold solder joints....that probably wouldn't work on a MINI.

 

Sounds like a fair attempt. I wonder in how many situations an extra 15, 30, 60 minutes of the tech's time will add to problem solving. How might the cost burden be shifted/shared between the mfgr/dealer/owner when diagnostic time has no more value but the customer insists (hopefully honestly) that a problem exists?

 

I really do understand that intermittent problems are an issue. I just don't know of any easy way to resolve it other than to throw money at the diagnostics and the customer is going to pay for that. Lets look at what you suggested.

"Thow parts at it". The dealer isn't going to pay for those parts. They go to MINIUSA for reinbursement. If MINIUSA doesn't pay, you pay. If the part really isn't broken, isn't that cheating MINIUSA? Why should MINI pay for a part that isn't broken?

As to the test tube stuff ... well, things today are not meant for individual part repairs. YEARS ago I too a car radio into a car dealer for repair. Although certainly parts were on boards, they said it wasn't worth the time and effort to figure it out ... for a couple of hundred bucks, get a new radio where I would be paying that much money in labor to diagnose the problem.

Here is an example ... a little **** fell off the front vent. Instead of just fixing the ****, MINI replaced the entire vent assembly. Things today are not meant be individually replaced

I have no easy solution to this. Sorry

 

I had this problem so I used my videophone to record a wind noise at the cowl - I commented during it about doing 80mph and hearing the noise near front of cowl and showed how recirc got rid of it. If you can, record it and show them if they cant replicate.

 

I apologize if I am taking this too far, but I think it is a worthy dialogue. I wouldn't call it "cheating Mini" since there's no bad intent, but that's semantic and I get your drift. Your illustration is interesting to the point. Because of the complexity of the technology in modern cars generally - MINI is certainly not an exception - and the manufacturer's choice to assemble the vehicle with modular systems - likely to save build costs - IMHO two things occur: (1) the cost savings at building the car is made up at the service end. I would guess that the consumer cost of replacing the vent instead of a **** is much greater than BMW would have suffered if it made a replaceable vent ****. I would rather pay a little more at purchase and a lot less at service. (2) Whether intended or not, and forgetting the cost issue, has not parts replacement become a diagnostic tool since there seems to be no other way to find the root of some problems? I'm not talking about the little niggly stuff like plastic rattles. I think a failing exhaust part, a faulty door lock actuator or a malfunctioning back up alarm are potential safety or significant cost problems.

jreaney - good advice. I'll have to try to tech up. I guess an onboard audio/video system is the "service your car" version of a radar detector

 

How about this...

If the dealer can't replicate the problem, how can they figure out what to fix?

While it's frustrating to repeatedly bring a vehicle in for service on an intermittent problem that the dealer can't replicate, it's just as frustrating (possibly even more so) to have to repeatedly bring your car back to the dealer to fix a problem that continues to occur no matter what they do....

Think about it:
Customer reports intermittent grinding from left side of car...

Unable to replicate, replaced part X as precaution.

Customer returns reporting intermittent grinding from left side of car continues...

Unable to replicate, replaced part Y as precaution.

Customer returns reporting intermittent grinding from left side of car continues...

Unable to replicate, replaced part U as precaution.

Customer returns reporting intermittent grinding from left side of car continues...

Unable to replicate, replaced part D1 as precaution.

and so on...

Intermittent problems suck. But unless the dealer can reproduce it, it can be dang near impossible for them to figure out what the cause of the problem is and repair it.

 

Actually taping rattling is a good idea

Yes, I would agree. However, I still dont think they will do it for free without seeing the problem themselves anymore than the cable guy is going to do anything unless he sees the problem.

Try this go here http://www.alldata.com/tsb/BMW/index-issue.html Look at the TSBs starting with M (for MINI). See if any fit your issues.

Also see here https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...1&postcount=22

lots of ppl with door problems!

 

I understand not having something fixed because the dealer could not duplicate the problem. If they truely couldn't duplicate the problem.

That said. I believe the techs are trained to not hear rattles, knocks, squeeks or any other sort of problem the customer mentions. If they do. They then must check the computer to see if a bulletin has been released by MINI. If not. They say they couldn't duplicate the problem. Even if the whole dash is vibrating in front of them.

 

a few months before I got my 2004 MCS...I bought a set of training wheels (a 2003 at a great price) Figured I could always get my money out of it soooo...

There was this noise that sounded like the engine was knocking....(this was NOT my imagination!)

Turned out to be the lid on the Battery Box (MC has battery under the Bonnet) had a holding tab that would not engage properly (really bad engineering and weak plastic!) Be thankful it is different in the S!!!!

Anyway, during service this tech said that it fit and held fine...I popped open the bonnet and lifted the lid off with a VERY little amount of force, without pressing the release tabs! (the service manager was standing there and became visably upset at the tech!)....well it took them 3 lids to find one that would fit and clamp down correctly! Wonder how hard this tech tried to find the problem???

BTW: those with an MC with the battery lid (under the BONNET)....those side tabs are made like $#%@ I suggest you have a spare lid since even checking the green cell in the battery once can cause it to never hold again...that was my experience!

After that...nothing but good experiences! Stuff happens and all c annot be as good as I have had since then!

 

Sometimes if they can't replicate a problem they will give you a loaner so they can check it out over a few days at their leisure. Sometimes. Just sometimes. Other times when the problem seems minute to them, say something like a malfunctioning glove box lock, they will say they can't duplicate it & do nothing. Then you get to drive 500 miles round trip for a fix when your glove box finally gives out in the locked position.

That's me (I haven't driven the mega miles for the fix yet) & I really hope if I get pulled over the cop believes my story since I will not be able to show him my tag receipt or other papers because they are STUCK in my glove box I swear occifer they are in there

 

Basically it is up to the dealers to try to replicate or fix the problem. Most of the time if the issue is a common one they'll go ahead and perform the required fix even if they aren't able to replicate it. Now for problems that aren't common and they can't replicate, they'll usually ship it.

It depends on the problem also. Quite a few people complain of things that are ACTUALLY normal behavior of the vehicle. The tech can't afford to spend an hr trying to replicate an issue only to have it go nowhere. He just lost an hr trying to figure out the problem, and now he can't even fix it because he doesn't know what to fix.

I will say that more time should be spent on trying to replicate the problem, but there is a limit. I have spent 2 days trying to find a intermittent problem (I finally did), but nobody wants to spend that much time trying to just FIND a problem.

As for shotgunning/throwing parts. This goes bad for both parties. First customer is very pissed that they part they threw at the car didn't fix the problem. Two MINIUSA and the dealer isn't happy because now the tech has to throw another part at the car, driving up costs for MINIUSA, which they might possibly deny depending on the circumstances, in which case the dealer has to eat the costs. Three dealership isn't happy because now they have a unhappy customer which now they must make amends, and a car is a comeback which takes up a stall and time that could've been used to service a different car.

As for hearing rattles, etc. Remember not all techs are enthusiastic about the car as you are. MINI owners tend to hear every little detail that most normal people can't hear. Techs will try to listen for it, but if its something very slight, its hard to pick it up after only driving for 5 mins, where you been driving for hrs and have noticed it.

 

Thought I would chime in. I work in the service dept of a good sized dealership, non mini and I am not a tech. I can assure you that no one there wants to see a customer coming in for a problem more than once. Technicians here
are not paid by the hour, they are paid for what they repair. If the guide book say .5 hours to repair that is what they get regardless of actuall time. .1 hour or 5 hours they get a half hour credit. when the repair is warranty that half hour credit turns into only one tenth of an hour. I have a customer who has been in 5 times with a transmission complaint, he does not want to drive with me to point out the problem. Four different people incl myself have driven the vehicle and it performs exactly like the new vehicles from the lot, customer not satisfied. On one visit we put customer in rental and had sevice manager drive vehicle overnight. At this point when the technician sees this vehicle he will probably not spend much time on it because he has already invested many hours that he will never get paid for. The best suggestion I can give for these intermittent problems is this. Take notes, remember everything you can about what is going on when problem occurs and let your service consultant know the best way to recreate. Also unless this is a safety issue or major problem, such as stalling, knocking, smoking, steering issues, etc. let the problem get worse. If you have a problem that occurs once every two or three weeks and doesn't trigger a check engine light, we have a much smaller chance of finding the problem. In my experience when a technician "throws parts" at a problem I can expect to see that customer again. Sorry for being so long but that is my 2 cents.

 

Well, see that's a good chunk of your customer's problem... While it's the dealership's responsibility to diagnose and repair a problem, it's the customer's responsibility to give the dealership as much information as possible to assist them in diagnosing and repairing the problem. That includes accompaning a technician on a test drive to reproduce the problem if need be...

I've done several test drives with technicians who claim that they couldn't find a problem that I was reporting with my car, and not just MINIs and not always at the same dealership... And on every one of them within a mile after starting the drive I've looked at the tech and said "See/Hear that, that's what I'm talking about," and every time the tech has responded with "oh Gee you're right, that's not supposed to happen, we'll take care of it!" Sure enough the problem was resolved.

But your customer I have no sympathy for... If you're customer can't do their part to assist in the troubleshooting and diagnosis of the problem, then you're customer deserves to get billed for your technician's time and deserves to come back repeatedly and all of the frustration that goes along with it...

 

Spent the half the day at the dealership and experienced some of everything we discussed on this thread:

1. High Tech: This is the rattling exhaust baffle. Wouldn't ya know, it did not do it on the test drive with the tech, although it happened consistently for weeks before the service and every day since. I am convinced that the problem disappears when the exhaust is HOT (I drive 175 mi. for service), so the dealer will never be able to replicate the problem. I am going to the audio recording mode you suggested so the tech can get some tangible feedback for diagnosis. But, thew SA assured me that as long as the problem is well documented in the service file, which it is, the dealer will make good on the repair even if the fault is diagnosed after the warranty expires. That's fair.

2. Throw parts at it: The tech was very sure he knew why the driver's door lock wouldn't actuate, so he replaced the actuator. Did not work. Vindication for those who eschew vacuum tube testers

3. Modular Design: Rattle in sunroof in vent position to be solved by replacing the entire roof cassette rather than the faulty component. Glad this is on Bimmer's tab. Sure will hate this approach when the warranty is over.

4. Keep the customer more than satisfied: I complained that the entire ventilation control panel shut down for a couple of hours one time on a very hot day. Worked fine before and since. I just expected to make a record of this in the service file. The tech said he knew what the problem was an replaced an electronic control module (??). Very nice, but I would have if this were done on my tab. I'll learn to be very judicious after warranty expires, which I guess right there says a whole mouthful.

5. Sometimes best efforts make it worse: Ther tech worked very hard to eliminate body/chassis rattles. Now they are worse. Almost afraid to go back with request for further correction. Sometimes, leave bad enuff alone

6. Don't feel too sorry for the dealer: I asked for a set of front wiper blades under the service plan. When I checked out, I got a bill. The SA said the service plan was 3/35 from the date the car first went into service. When I dropped my jaw on his desk, he verified with the salesman that I was told when the car was purchased (at 12mo/11k mi) that it would be 3/35 from the date of my purchase. TA told me he would charge the wipers to sales (I guess he stuck my salesman ) and I will be paying for all further wipers, oil changes, etc. (NO WAY) Yeah, I know all about my legal rights, but sometimes it pays not to **** and moan. But, IMHO this vindicates the view that whatever happens, someone is paying the price, and for the most part, the customer is at the bottom of the food chain.