Rattle : Supercharger / water pump
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: Salem, OR
Minis don't. The sound failure that is the subject of this thread is the water pump gears in the back of the SC, at the center/front of the engine. Tensioners go bad, that's for sure, and there is increased belt tension when under boost as opposed to when the by-pass valve is open. But the pully on the SC is fixed to the shaft, and while the front shaft of the SC has gone south in a few cars, most of the failures is at the rear where the waterpump drive gears are, and that leads to overheating.
A good way to help isolate this is with a lenght of rubber hose to use as a steathescope. Have someone rev the motor while the hood is open and see if you can replicate the sound. Quick jabs to the gas pedal should get the bypass valve to close, increasing the load to the tensioner.
Matt
A good way to help isolate this is with a lenght of rubber hose to use as a steathescope. Have someone rev the motor while the hood is open and see if you can replicate the sound. Quick jabs to the gas pedal should get the bypass valve to close, increasing the load to the tensioner.
Matt
It's sounding like the tensioner then.
One of our techs had me rev my engine a few times with the hood up while he stuck his head down near the tensioner, and it made the sound when revving the engine and the tensioner had a load put on it..
1st Gear
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
From: Livermore, CA
Where is the oil going?
Two things actually:
1) It looks to me like there is no concensus yet as to where the oil is actually leaking out from in most cases. I know its either from the case where the gear housing mates with the sc housing, or through the shaft seal where the rotor shaft comes through. But I have seen posts arguing either cause.
2) I know the gears are not available separately but are the shaft seals and bearings? I have seen kits for the GM M62 superchargers that basically just collect the required bearings, seals, lube, and coupler into one bag. Is it possible to piece together something like this for our m45 that includes the MINI unique waterpump drive end?
If I am going to go through the trouble of pulling out the supercharger and check the oil levels, I'd rather take it a little further apart and replace the seals and bearings at that time. Especially if it does happen to be low. As the good Dr. O has so rightly pointed out, low oil level is the failure and adding more doesn't really address that.
Am I being too naive in thinking it would be a relatively simple matter to press in some new shaft seals and/or bearings? Or is it much more complicated than that? And, of course, are the parts readily available?
1) It looks to me like there is no concensus yet as to where the oil is actually leaking out from in most cases. I know its either from the case where the gear housing mates with the sc housing, or through the shaft seal where the rotor shaft comes through. But I have seen posts arguing either cause.
2) I know the gears are not available separately but are the shaft seals and bearings? I have seen kits for the GM M62 superchargers that basically just collect the required bearings, seals, lube, and coupler into one bag. Is it possible to piece together something like this for our m45 that includes the MINI unique waterpump drive end?
If I am going to go through the trouble of pulling out the supercharger and check the oil levels, I'd rather take it a little further apart and replace the seals and bearings at that time. Especially if it does happen to be low. As the good Dr. O has so rightly pointed out, low oil level is the failure and adding more doesn't really address that.
Am I being too naive in thinking it would be a relatively simple matter to press in some new shaft seals and/or bearings? Or is it much more complicated than that? And, of course, are the parts readily available?
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 7
From: Pipe Creek, Texas
silenze, I see it is a 2003 model, depending on whether it is an early or late build it may have the original version of the crankshaft vibration damper. Since there seems to be no change in boost it may not be the source of the sound but when it goes south it will make noise, mine sounded like a rattling chain but I could have called it a loose change sound.
A check list for pulley drive health: take tension off the belt, spin the tensioner pulley and listen for noise, turn it by hand to feel for roughness, grab it and feel for play (it shouldn’t wiggle much), move down to the idler pulley and perform the same tests, if there is play on the idler pulley but no noise or roughness, apply the correct torque value; mine was loose at the 20,000 mile mark, I tightened, and it lasted until 75k before failing. Pull the lower splash shield, grab the crankshaft pulley and try to rock it, there should be absolutely no movement, if it can tap against the timing chain cover it is bad. Take a close look at the tensioner to be sure the shock hasn’t lost its fluid or walked off the mounting bushings.
A check list for pulley drive health: take tension off the belt, spin the tensioner pulley and listen for noise, turn it by hand to feel for roughness, grab it and feel for play (it shouldn’t wiggle much), move down to the idler pulley and perform the same tests, if there is play on the idler pulley but no noise or roughness, apply the correct torque value; mine was loose at the 20,000 mile mark, I tightened, and it lasted until 75k before failing. Pull the lower splash shield, grab the crankshaft pulley and try to rock it, there should be absolutely no movement, if it can tap against the timing chain cover it is bad. Take a close look at the tensioner to be sure the shock hasn’t lost its fluid or walked off the mounting bushings.
2nd Gear
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 105
Likes: 0
From: Salem, OR
silenze, I see it is a 2003 model, depending on whether it is an early or late build it may have the original version of the crankshaft vibration damper. Since there seems to be no change in boost it may not be the source of the sound but when it goes south it will make noise, mine sounded like a rattling chain but I could have called it a loose change sound.
A check list for pulley drive health: take tension off the belt, spin the tensioner pulley and listen for noise, turn it by hand to feel for roughness, grab it and feel for play (it shouldn’t wiggle much), move down to the idler pulley and perform the same tests, if there is play on the idler pulley but no noise or roughness, apply the correct torque value; mine was loose at the 20,000 mile mark, I tightened, and it lasted until 75k before failing. Pull the lower splash shield, grab the crankshaft pulley and try to rock it, there should be absolutely no movement, if it can tap against the timing chain cover it is bad. Take a close look at the tensioner to be sure the shock hasn’t lost its fluid or walked off the mounting bushings.
A check list for pulley drive health: take tension off the belt, spin the tensioner pulley and listen for noise, turn it by hand to feel for roughness, grab it and feel for play (it shouldn’t wiggle much), move down to the idler pulley and perform the same tests, if there is play on the idler pulley but no noise or roughness, apply the correct torque value; mine was loose at the 20,000 mile mark, I tightened, and it lasted until 75k before failing. Pull the lower splash shield, grab the crankshaft pulley and try to rock it, there should be absolutely no movement, if it can tap against the timing chain cover it is bad. Take a close look at the tensioner to be sure the shock hasn’t lost its fluid or walked off the mounting bushings.
This is good information guys. I have had a noise that the dealer is saying is normal and I disagree. I have 119k and I think I can confirm that my supercharger is also on the way out. Anyone have a used, low-mileage unit collecting dust, since I am apparently looking for one. Stock or JCW, doesn't matter to me.
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Arlington, TX
supercharger/waterpump problem
My waterpump gearing just went kaput and now I'm in the mess of trying to figure out what to do. It seems that the only thing Mini offers is to replace the whole supercharger. That's preposterous!!! That's akin to having to replace the whole engine if the transmission broke! So, I talked to a supercharger guy (of PSE Superchargers). One who specifically works on Eaton chargers and one of only two companies who are factory certified to work on Eaton chargers. Here are some notes from that conversation:
1. The supercharger in the Mini is a little overdriven out of the box, and the bearings for the output shaft to the water pump gear wear easier than thought - and even faster with an under-drive pulley (I have one). This puts to rest the rumor that the JCW gears are different, they aren't - but the bearings are.
2. Eaton is like the Giant Gorilla in the fact that they are very reluctant to sell the gears as a rebuild - they want to force you to buy the whole supercharger when one little peice of it breaks. If everyone ******* and moans enough, we might get through - send them e-mails out the wazoo!
3. Service of the oil in the water pump geartrain is something that should be done every 30K or so. There is a leak on the suction side and the oil will eventually dissapear. Through the little plug in the casing, this is very easy with a turkey baster and some supercharger oil. Noone knows why this is never in a service bulletin - according to him it hasn't been in any since the superchargers of the 80's & 90's (T-birds, Saturns, ...)
4. Anyone with a supercharger should have an A/F Meter!
5. After heat-soak the Mini computer re-computes timing and a 15% pulley will not produce any more output than a 10%.
6. Harrop Engineering is considering an aftermarket supercharger upgrade for the Mini - a 62-70 cu in unit (as opposed to the 45 cu in stock unit) that will bolt right in place. So everyone e-mail them and tell them to do it.
7. After it's all said and done, it's still gonna cost me $2k to to fix what a 2",$5 gear did.
The non-replaceability of the geartrain is not a function of Mini, it is a function of Eaton. It would be nice to flood them with the thought that this little discomfort has soured our thoughts on Eaton and superchargers in general, and we will seriously re-consider ever buying a eaton-equipped car again.
I'll let you guys know if anything else comes up in this line of repair. Let's hope things get better. For my pocket book's sake, I hope it does.
Chris
1. The supercharger in the Mini is a little overdriven out of the box, and the bearings for the output shaft to the water pump gear wear easier than thought - and even faster with an under-drive pulley (I have one). This puts to rest the rumor that the JCW gears are different, they aren't - but the bearings are.
2. Eaton is like the Giant Gorilla in the fact that they are very reluctant to sell the gears as a rebuild - they want to force you to buy the whole supercharger when one little peice of it breaks. If everyone ******* and moans enough, we might get through - send them e-mails out the wazoo!
3. Service of the oil in the water pump geartrain is something that should be done every 30K or so. There is a leak on the suction side and the oil will eventually dissapear. Through the little plug in the casing, this is very easy with a turkey baster and some supercharger oil. Noone knows why this is never in a service bulletin - according to him it hasn't been in any since the superchargers of the 80's & 90's (T-birds, Saturns, ...)
4. Anyone with a supercharger should have an A/F Meter!
5. After heat-soak the Mini computer re-computes timing and a 15% pulley will not produce any more output than a 10%.
6. Harrop Engineering is considering an aftermarket supercharger upgrade for the Mini - a 62-70 cu in unit (as opposed to the 45 cu in stock unit) that will bolt right in place. So everyone e-mail them and tell them to do it.
7. After it's all said and done, it's still gonna cost me $2k to to fix what a 2",$5 gear did.
The non-replaceability of the geartrain is not a function of Mini, it is a function of Eaton. It would be nice to flood them with the thought that this little discomfort has soured our thoughts on Eaton and superchargers in general, and we will seriously re-consider ever buying a eaton-equipped car again.
I'll let you guys know if anything else comes up in this line of repair. Let's hope things get better. For my pocket book's sake, I hope it does.
Chris
6th Gear
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,629
Likes: 7
From: Pipe Creek, Texas
Some clarification about overdriving the SC, timing is altered as a protective response to knock. There are many factors at work triggering timing retard, not heat alone, so if VE is improved upon on the combustion side, the overdriven Eaton can produce power at higher rpm without inducing the knock response; the 15% can still perform like a 15%, the same goes for smaller pulleys. Some knock responses on our MINIs are instigated by engine noises and have nothing to do with heat or pressure; fuel quality also plays a big role in knock. Efficiency curves of our M45s is a separate, but of course related issue, with its own effects.
Personally, I’m looking forward to future Eaton Roots variants. At this time Eaton has only begun production on its larger displacement TVS SCs http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Produc.../TVS/index.htm , but it is only a matter of time before a MINI displacement size is produced. Harrop also recognizes the value of the TVS technology and has begun to build at least one unit utilizing the new design. Something like this http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showt...=91586&page=37 is probably what PSE was referring too.
Personally, I’m looking forward to future Eaton Roots variants. At this time Eaton has only begun production on its larger displacement TVS SCs http://www.eaton.com/EatonCom/Produc.../TVS/index.htm , but it is only a matter of time before a MINI displacement size is produced. Harrop also recognizes the value of the TVS technology and has begun to build at least one unit utilizing the new design. Something like this http://www.cobaltss.net/forums/showt...=91586&page=37 is probably what PSE was referring too.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
From: Baton Rouge, LA
2. Eaton is like the Giant Gorilla in the fact that they are very reluctant to sell the gears as a rebuild - they want to force you to buy the whole supercharger when one little peice of it breaks. If everyone ******* and moans enough, we might get through - send them e-mails out the wazoo!
- Matt
Last edited by verveAbsolut; Feb 6, 2008 at 11:45 PM.
Lots of comments...
My waterpump gearing just went kaput and now I'm in the mess of trying to figure out what to do. It seems that the only thing Mini offers is to replace the whole supercharger. That's preposterous!!! That's akin to having to replace the whole engine if the transmission broke! So, I talked to a supercharger guy (of PSE Superchargers). One who specifically works on Eaton chargers and one of only two companies who are factory certified to work on Eaton chargers. Here are some notes from that conversation:
1. The supercharger in the Mini is a little overdriven out of the box, and the bearings for the output shaft to the water pump gear wear easier than thought - and even faster with an under-drive pulley (I have one). This puts to rest the rumor that the JCW gears are different, they aren't - but the bearings are.
2. Eaton is like the Giant Gorilla in the fact that they are very reluctant to sell the gears as a rebuild - they want to force you to buy the whole supercharger when one little peice of it breaks. If everyone ******* and moans enough, we might get through - send them e-mails out the wazoo!
3. Service of the oil in the water pump geartrain is something that should be done every 30K or so. There is a leak on the suction side and the oil will eventually dissapear. Through the little plug in the casing, this is very easy with a turkey baster and some supercharger oil. Noone knows why this is never in a service bulletin - according to him it hasn't been in any since the superchargers of the 80's & 90's (T-birds, Saturns, ...)
4. Anyone with a supercharger should have an A/F Meter!
5. After heat-soak the Mini computer re-computes timing and a 15% pulley will not produce any more output than a 10%.
6. Harrop Engineering is considering an aftermarket supercharger upgrade for the Mini - a 62-70 cu in unit (as opposed to the 45 cu in stock unit) that will bolt right in place. So everyone e-mail them and tell them to do it.
7. After it's all said and done, it's still gonna cost me $2k to to fix what a 2",$5 gear did.
The non-replaceability of the geartrain is not a function of Mini, it is a function of Eaton. It would be nice to flood them with the thought that this little discomfort has soured our thoughts on Eaton and superchargers in general, and we will seriously re-consider ever buying a eaton-equipped car again.
I'll let you guys know if anything else comes up in this line of repair. Let's hope things get better. For my pocket book's sake, I hope it does.
Chris
1. The supercharger in the Mini is a little overdriven out of the box, and the bearings for the output shaft to the water pump gear wear easier than thought - and even faster with an under-drive pulley (I have one). This puts to rest the rumor that the JCW gears are different, they aren't - but the bearings are.
2. Eaton is like the Giant Gorilla in the fact that they are very reluctant to sell the gears as a rebuild - they want to force you to buy the whole supercharger when one little peice of it breaks. If everyone ******* and moans enough, we might get through - send them e-mails out the wazoo!
3. Service of the oil in the water pump geartrain is something that should be done every 30K or so. There is a leak on the suction side and the oil will eventually dissapear. Through the little plug in the casing, this is very easy with a turkey baster and some supercharger oil. Noone knows why this is never in a service bulletin - according to him it hasn't been in any since the superchargers of the 80's & 90's (T-birds, Saturns, ...)
4. Anyone with a supercharger should have an A/F Meter!
5. After heat-soak the Mini computer re-computes timing and a 15% pulley will not produce any more output than a 10%.
6. Harrop Engineering is considering an aftermarket supercharger upgrade for the Mini - a 62-70 cu in unit (as opposed to the 45 cu in stock unit) that will bolt right in place. So everyone e-mail them and tell them to do it.
7. After it's all said and done, it's still gonna cost me $2k to to fix what a 2",$5 gear did.
The non-replaceability of the geartrain is not a function of Mini, it is a function of Eaton. It would be nice to flood them with the thought that this little discomfort has soured our thoughts on Eaton and superchargers in general, and we will seriously re-consider ever buying a eaton-equipped car again.
I'll let you guys know if anything else comes up in this line of repair. Let's hope things get better. For my pocket book's sake, I hope it does.
Chris
If you want an M62, it's been done. It works but it's more than a simple bolt on. There's lots you need to do to make it effective. DDM built up a few kits that are running around, but it was a royal PITA. Search on "M62" if this sites search engine works with three letter words, and you'll get a months worth of reading.
As far as I know, Mini is the only car that runs the water pump off the back of the SC. All the rest drive it off something else. So our SC is a bit of a special, even for Eaton.
Keith hit the nail on the head with the comments about timing and fueling as safety precautions for the engine. Also, once you're moving again, if you're not under power all the time, the intake parts tend to cool pretty well. If you're gonna track your car, then you will have to do something about heat soak.... There are tons of ways to skin that cat.
Don't pay $2k for a SC. Search the marketplace here, and eBay for a take off. Or contact Nathan, Vendor Name is MotoringSpeed. They are still working on the website still. He goes by MotoringSpeed_gnat as a vendor here on NAM. Give him a call at phone # 214-618-3639 and you will get a much better price than from your dealer. He's got a source for OEM stuff that is the basis of his business.
Doing the SC swap is surprisingly easy. Just swap your belt at the same time, and you'll need some o-rings and hose clamps etc for doing the cooling water connections. But it will save you more than a couple hundred in labor!
The A/F meter sure will show you some interesting stuff. Mostly that our cars run pig rich! I don't know if you really need that for telling you have heat soak. The sluggins performance usually does that for me just fine!
Matt
1st Gear
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 33
Likes: 0
From: Arlington, TX
k-huevo:
You're right, I think he was speaking to cars that didn't have any software improvements or other enhancements.
Absolut:
I don't think the dimensions are a problem, it's the speed ratings and spindle attachment that would be issue. These things spin pretty fast and get pretty hot, so some serious engineering would have to go into it to have an outcome that would last. I agree, however, that if someone would put that energy into it, they would have a market for top-quality gear replacement.
FYI: PSE sells a rebuilt one that is ported (15% more flow = 7-12hp) for about $1200, but you have to get him a good core (one that hasn't stripped the gears on the back). Magnuson will do the same, but I don't know the pricing.
You're right, I think he was speaking to cars that didn't have any software improvements or other enhancements.
Absolut:
I don't think the dimensions are a problem, it's the speed ratings and spindle attachment that would be issue. These things spin pretty fast and get pretty hot, so some serious engineering would have to go into it to have an outcome that would last. I agree, however, that if someone would put that energy into it, they would have a market for top-quality gear replacement.
FYI: PSE sells a rebuilt one that is ported (15% more flow = 7-12hp) for about $1200, but you have to get him a good core (one that hasn't stripped the gears on the back). Magnuson will do the same, but I don't know the pricing.
4th Gear
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
From: Baton Rouge, LA
Absolut:
I don't think the dimensions are a problem, it's the speed ratings and spindle attachment that would be issue. These things spin pretty fast and get pretty hot, so some serious engineering would have to go into it to have an outcome that would last. I agree, however, that if someone would put that energy into it, they would have a market for top-quality gear replacement.
I don't think the dimensions are a problem, it's the speed ratings and spindle attachment that would be issue. These things spin pretty fast and get pretty hot, so some serious engineering would have to go into it to have an outcome that would last. I agree, however, that if someone would put that energy into it, they would have a market for top-quality gear replacement.
True...it may not work out due to that. The machine he has access to is unable to cut forged or high hardness materials...more suited for low stress gearings. We had originally gotten on the topic of straight cut gears for a Subaru gearbox, and I was wondering what capacity he had.
- Matt
5th Gear
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 942
Likes: 4
I think the best solution, assuming the rest of the SC is good, is to convert to an electric water pump. There are several posts here about doing just that.
If a person converted to an electric water pump at about 50K miles, would you need to put a blank plate back on and add oil to keep the seals wet, or could you just let them run dry? I'm guessing wet would be the best solution.
A blank plate with a plug in the side at the correct location as a fill and drain plug.
This would free up a tiny bit more hp also.
This has been discussed many times before and I think putting your energy into perfecting the electric conversion would be far more productive than making new gears.
YD
If a person converted to an electric water pump at about 50K miles, would you need to put a blank plate back on and add oil to keep the seals wet, or could you just let them run dry? I'm guessing wet would be the best solution.
A blank plate with a plug in the side at the correct location as a fill and drain plug.
This would free up a tiny bit more hp also.
This has been discussed many times before and I think putting your energy into perfecting the electric conversion would be far more productive than making new gears.
YD
6th Gear
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,301
Likes: 1
As an aside, I had a knock sensor retarding timing due to a broken engine mount. In reality, one was broken and the other two worn allowing the engine to bang as the throttle is opened and closed. This caused, some headaches. I installed a poly insert as a temp fix - new mounts coming this week. The poly transmit too much vibration.
The problem has gone away...though the car still feels sluggish...but 121K miles will do that.
The problem has gone away...though the car still feels sluggish...but 121K miles will do that.
Finally had the supercharger removed at 121K. We also removed the front and rear covers to measure the oil left in the unit and low and behold the rear resevoir was indeed empty of any fluid. It was just a pile of oily gear shavings. A real mess. Who knows how long it would have been until the water pump froze up. Look for an upcoming story in MC2.
4th Gear
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 394
Likes: 1
From: KC
Two things actually:
1) It looks to me like there is no concensus yet as to where the oil is actually leaking out from in most cases. I know its either from the case where the gear housing mates with the sc housing, or through the shaft seal where the rotor shaft comes through. But I have seen posts arguing either cause.
2) I know the gears are not available separately but are the shaft seals and bearings? I have seen kits for the GM M62 superchargers that basically just collect the required bearings, seals, lube, and coupler into one bag. Is it possible to piece together something like this for our m45 that includes the MINI unique waterpump drive end?
If I am going to go through the trouble of pulling out the supercharger and check the oil levels, I'd rather take it a little further apart and replace the seals and bearings at that time. Especially if it does happen to be low. As the good Dr. O has so rightly pointed out, low oil level is the failure and adding more doesn't really address that.
Am I being too naive in thinking it would be a relatively simple matter to press in some new shaft seals and/or bearings? Or is it much more complicated than that? And, of course, are the parts readily available?
1) It looks to me like there is no concensus yet as to where the oil is actually leaking out from in most cases. I know its either from the case where the gear housing mates with the sc housing, or through the shaft seal where the rotor shaft comes through. But I have seen posts arguing either cause.
2) I know the gears are not available separately but are the shaft seals and bearings? I have seen kits for the GM M62 superchargers that basically just collect the required bearings, seals, lube, and coupler into one bag. Is it possible to piece together something like this for our m45 that includes the MINI unique waterpump drive end?
If I am going to go through the trouble of pulling out the supercharger and check the oil levels, I'd rather take it a little further apart and replace the seals and bearings at that time. Especially if it does happen to be low. As the good Dr. O has so rightly pointed out, low oil level is the failure and adding more doesn't really address that.
Am I being too naive in thinking it would be a relatively simple matter to press in some new shaft seals and/or bearings? Or is it much more complicated than that? And, of course, are the parts readily available?
Looks like I'm going to need to check the supercharger oil levels on my car - here's the leak I found when changing the supercharger pulley this weekend at 44k miles. The oil residue is on the oil pump side - are there seals which can be replaced if I pull the supercharger? Hopefully the drive gears aren't already trashed (haven't heard any abnormal noise other than an intermitant high pitched ringing sound).
Not to revive a really old thread, but does anyone have any video/sound clips of the noise made when the supercharger is on its way out?
I was showing a friend the exhaust burble on my '04 MCS (40k miles) today, and after goosing the throttle, I heard a very loud rattle sound from the engine compartment. Engine is quiet at idle, you can only hear the injectors clicking away. The rattle sound only happens every once in a while, when you rev the engine up.
I took a look at my supercharger (as best as I could w/o removing anything), and noticed the front of my engine is coated in a rather dark sooty looking substance. It doesn't seem oily, more sooty than anything.
I can try to take pics tomorrow if that helps...
I was showing a friend the exhaust burble on my '04 MCS (40k miles) today, and after goosing the throttle, I heard a very loud rattle sound from the engine compartment. Engine is quiet at idle, you can only hear the injectors clicking away. The rattle sound only happens every once in a while, when you rev the engine up.
I took a look at my supercharger (as best as I could w/o removing anything), and noticed the front of my engine is coated in a rather dark sooty looking substance. It doesn't seem oily, more sooty than anything.
I can try to take pics tomorrow if that helps...
Mine sounded just like a metallic bearing going out type of noise and it made it all the time.
I haven't seen anyone post up service part numbers so seals are not available for it as far as I've seen.
I haven't seen anyone post up service part numbers so seals are not available for it as far as I've seen.
Nope
Matt