Stock Problems/Issues Discussions related to warranty related issues and repairs, or other problems with the OEM parts and software for MINI Clubman (R55), Cooper and Cooper S(R56), and Cabrio (R57).

Coil packs

  #1  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:53 PM
Shotgun_banjo
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Coil packs

Replaced my upstream sensor and that fixed one problem and now I have misfiring cylinder. I traced it and it is the first coil as I have swapped them around amd the error followed the coil. Now I was reading around and some say just change the coil with the error and some say change all of the 4 coils. My car is a Justa.
 
  #2  
Old 06-13-2019, 07:59 PM
WayMotorWorks
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I always recommend replacing the coils as a set of 4 as just doing one ends up having you chase the others over time when they die. And only use original MINI coils as we've not had good luck with aftermarket.
 
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  #3  
Old 06-13-2019, 09:39 PM
Shotgun_banjo
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I pulled my coils and noticed they are delphi brands and searched amazon and found the exact same thing.
Amazon Amazon

The dealer coils are like $128 each so buying 4 will be like more than $500 vs $164 for 4. Is it also best to replace the spark plugs as well? I was not the original owner and not sure if the spark plugs was replaced but when I bought the car I got it checked by the mini dealer and they said the spark plugs are still okay and that was 2.5 years ago/ 30k kilometers after. If I am replacing spark plugs I am leaning towards Bosch but not sure which one. Would this work?
Amazon Amazon

If you have any recommendations please chime in.
 
  #4  
Old 06-14-2019, 05:07 AM
MiniMeep
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My 2010 R57 justa had Bosch as original coils and I replaced them with the same parts from an aftermarket supplier.

This is what I ordered: Bosch C9199 Ignition Coil BMW M1/M5/M6

That was 18 months ago and the car has been running fine since (I had what felt like a flat spot a 2000 rpm, new coils got rid of the problem)
 
  #5  
Old 06-14-2019, 05:12 AM
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mkov608
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Originally Posted by WayMotorWorks View Post
I always recommend replacing the coils as a set of 4 as just doing one ends up having you chase the others over time when they die. And only use original MINI coils as we've not had good luck with aftermarket.
Disagree, there is no predicable failure pattern along the PF curve for coil failures (and all other electrical components). On the other side (installing four new coils), you may suffer from infant mortality if you install sub-standard coils. I had an old gen 2 Chrysler mini van that I bought in 1993 and drove it 325K miles. When I sold the car, it had the original coil pack.

When I had to deal with a #2 cylinder misfire on our Justa, my indy shop put the car on a scope and found I had an intermittent fuel injector, so they replaced the #2 fuel injector; I didn't replace all four fuel injectors. I haven't had a misfire in the past 30K miles since the injector was replaced.
 

Last edited by mkov608; 06-14-2019 at 05:18 AM.
  #6  
Old 06-14-2019, 11:25 AM
WayMotorWorks
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Originally Posted by mkov608 View Post
Disagree, there is no predicable failure pattern along the PF curve for coil failures (and all other electrical components). On the other side (installing four new coils), you may suffer from infant mortality if you install sub-standard coils. I had an old gen 2 Chrysler mini van that I bought in 1993 and drove it 325K miles. When I sold the car, it had the original coil pack.
Well I own a shop that only works on MINIs and I can tell you from first hand experience that replacing just one coil has bitten me in the butt before. Because we see these coils fail all the time, being cheap and just replacing one for the customer to come back in a month or two with a different failed coil. So then the customer is mad because they have to make another trip back to us for another coil. And with how prone to failing these are it is easier and cheaper to do them all at once rather than the time to keep coming back and doing them over time. Fuel injectors would be a different story as they don't fail very often.

Also we don't recommend aftermarket coils even the ones "made" by the original manufacture. Again I own a shop and would like to be profitable so if I could use these aftermarket coils and not have come backs with them I would, as it would be more profitable for me to do that. But when they come back failed not only do I have to do the job again and warranty said part for free, I also have an upset customer. So this is why I won't use or recommend the aftermarket coils. We have also found that the aftermarket coils even the ones made by the same manufacture as the originals don't put out the same voltage or perform as well as the original MINI boxed coils. If you have a Scope and use to to measure the voltage and spark output of the Original MINI boxed coils then put in the non original MINI coils and scope out the signal you will see a lower peak voltage and shorter trail. We've seen this on other brand cars as our local VW dealer still has a scope in their shop just to prove this to customers. The lower voltage from these aftermarket coils may work for a car that never accelerated hard or driven like grandma, but when you have this weak spark and lay into it or you're looking to make real power these will become a factor.
 
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  #7  
Old 06-14-2019, 07:09 PM
Shotgun_banjo
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So I did bought 4 of the coils and I just to know if I am getting this right. For a shop owner's perspective changing all 4 coils at once will save the customer time and headache and you from a call back. If I am an DIY person and it is so easy to swap the coils should it be safe to just change 1 at a time and just replace what is deteriorating/failing later? I have a OBD2 code reader and can reset codes as needed so that will not make me curse every time I see a yellow check engine light. I am not in a way saying I want to cheap out since I bought all 4 coils but would it make sense to extract every bit of life on the other coils first before swapping them out or is there a reason that a brand new coil will throw a imbalance on the engine or gets prematurely worn out because of the other older coils? How about performance of having a new coil mixed with old coils or it does not matter?
 
  #8  
Old 06-14-2019, 07:24 PM
RockC
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Originally Posted by Shotgun_banjo View Post
So I did bought 4 of the coils and I just to know if I am getting this right. For a shop owner's perspective changing all 4 coils at once will save the customer time and headache and you from a call back. If I am an DIY person and it is so easy to swap the coils should it be safe to just change 1 at a time and just replace what is deteriorating/failing later? I have a OBD2 code reader and can reset codes as needed so that will not make me curse every time I see a yellow check engine light. I am not in a way saying I want to cheap out since I bought all 4 coils but would it make sense to extract every bit of life on the other coils first before swapping them out or is there a reason that a brand new coil will throw a imbalance on the engine or gets prematurely worn out because of the other older coils? How about performance of having a new coil mixed with old coils or it does not matter?
While the other coils may not be bad enough to misfire they can still be under performing. On a whim I had the coils in my 2003 Porsche 996 Turbo replaced at around 140K miles. No error codes. Just on a whim. Had the plugs changed too, even though they had around 10K miles before they were due. Afterwards the engine ran better. Kind of surprised me but it emphasizes that coils (and my experience found the same with O2 sensors) can and do deteriorate. They are wear items.

(Might mention I had the plugs changed on schedule several times and the engine never reacted one way or the other to the new plugs. So all the improvement in how the engine ran was due to the new coils.)

And while I'm not a fan of just replacing stuff to be replacing it -- ignoring the decision to replace the coils on a whim -- if a coil that has some considerable miles on it manifests a problem really the engine and you are better off just replacing all the coils right then and there. You get a system/rhythm going and for a DIYer this is a good thing as we don't do things like coils all that often. In fact I put 317K miles on my other Porsche, a Boxster, and the coils were original and no signs of any issues. (Had I kept the car I was going to replace the coils -- again on a whim -- just to see what effect if any new coils would have had on the engine.)

There is the risk the coils get misplaced or you find after a while when you do go to install the rest one proves to be bad out of the box. If you delay too long then you run the risk you can't take the bad coil back and exchange it. This risk is small. But the risk of losing/misplacing the other new coils is not that small if I know my DIYers and I do.

With your engine with a new coil and 3 old ones the chances are there will be a difference between the "performance" of the cylinders. The engine may not idle as smoothly as it could and there could be other side effects. While none put the engine at risk of any danger with a small (or even a large) engine uniformity between the cylinders is important.
 
  #9  
Old 06-14-2019, 10:00 PM
MiniMeep
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Originally Posted by Shotgun_banjo View Post
So I did bought 4 of the coils and I just to know if I am getting this right. For a shop owner's perspective changing all 4 coils at once will save the customer time and headache and you from a call back. If I am an DIY person and it is so easy to swap the coils should it be safe to just change 1 at a time and just replace what is deteriorating/failing later? I have a OBD2 code reader and can reset codes as needed so that will not make me curse every time I see a yellow check engine light. I am not in a way saying I want to cheap out since I bought all 4 coils but would it make sense to extract every bit of life on the other coils first before swapping them out or is there a reason that a brand new coil will throw a imbalance on the engine or gets prematurely worn out because of the other older coils? How about performance of having a new coil mixed with old coils or it does not matter?
These parts last such a long time I don't think their is a benefit in extracting max life out of the old one, put the new ones in as you won't need to be replacing them for many years.
 
  #10  
Old 06-15-2019, 01:56 AM
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Originally Posted by RockC View Post
While the other coils may not be bad enough to misfire they can still be under performing. Really? To what degree? How are you measuring this? What is the acceptable level of performance. On a whim I had the coils in my 2003 Porsche 996 Turbo replaced at around 140K miles. No error codes. Just on a whim. Had the plugs changed too, (So your anecdotal "engine ran better" test was probably related to the plugs which do have a recommended service interval from the car manufacturer.) even though they had around 10K miles before they were due. Afterwards the engine ran better. Kind of surprised me but it emphasizes that coils (and my experience found the same with O2 sensors) can and do deteriorate. They are wear items. (Please tell us exactly what "wears" inside a coil. Definition of wear being "Removal and deformation of material on the surface as a result of mechanical action of the opposite surface." Sure rubber boots can crack and deteriorate, but that's a different failure mode from wear.) If the coils are a wear item, why don't car manufacturers list them in the service requirements section of the owners manual? Looks like the engineers missed an item on their failure mode effect analysis.

(Might mention I had the plugs changed on schedule several times and the engine never reacted one way or the other to the new plugs. So all the improvement in how the engine ran was due to the new coils.) So here again we have firm proof that the coils were the problem just because you never experienced a noticeable change in engine performance when you changed the plugs previously. How do you know it was the coils again? It could have been a "bad" plug and the odds are higher.

And while I'm not a fan of just replacing stuff to be replacing it (Most customers aren't ... the stuff's expensive, and most Americans are heavily in debt!) -- ignoring the decision to replace the coils on a whim -- if a coil that has some considerable miles (Define "considerable". Is considerable different for the N12, N14, N16 and N18 engines? What more important, mileage or operating hours?) on it manifests a problem really the engine and you are better off (Better off financially?) just replacing all the coils right then and there. You get a system/rhythm going (This sounds very technical! So this is like a circadian rhythm for your car?) and for a DIYer this is a good thing as we don't do things like coils all that often. In fact I put 317K miles on my other Porsche, a Boxster, and the coils were original and no signs of any issues. (Had I kept the car I was going to replace the coils -- again on a whim -- (On a whim maintenance ... sure glad you don't work for the airlines!) just to see what effect if any new coils would have had on the engine.)

There is the risk the coils get misplaced or you find after a while when you do go to install the rest one proves to be bad out of the box. If you delay too long then you run the risk you can't take the bad coil back and exchange it (Some stores don't even offer refunds on electrical components). This risk is small (But the risk of losing your money by replacing perfectly good components is greater). But the risk of losing/misplacing the other new coils is not that small if I know my DIYers and I do.

With your engine with a new coil and 3 old ones the chances are (Percentages please) there will be a difference between the "performance" of the cylinders (How is the DIYer measuring this difference in performance? How are you? To what degree is loss in cylinder performance and cylinder imbalance caused by the ignition coil, injector function, fuel, wear of the rings/cylinders, valves etc, and how are you calculating what percentage of that lost performance is attributed to the ignition coil? Even brand new engines run across the dyno will see differences in compression between the cylinders). The engine may not idle as smoothly as it could and there could be other side effects (Such as). While none put the engine at risk of any danger with a small (or even a large) engine uniformity between the cylinders is important.
I'm sold. Sounds like I should change my ignition coils with every oil change. I can't wait to see the engineering data. Seems like is much more economical to test coils 12-13 volts in = xxx volts out.
 
  #11  
Old 06-15-2019, 09:56 AM
Shotgun_banjo
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Originally Posted by MiniMeep View Post
These parts last such a long time I don't think their is a benefit in extracting max life out of the old one, put the new ones in as you won't need to be replacing them for many years.
I decided to do just that. Replaced all 4 and kept the 3 old ones that are still okay as spare just in case the new one craps out (never know) and I can do a quick swap. Car is running smooth again. Plugs will be replaced next after 10k kilometers.
 
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Old 06-16-2019, 11:57 AM
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Come on you can't be as dense as you suggest by your responses.

As I stated in my previous post the engine perked up after new coils and plugs were installed. How could the plugs have been bad with the engine not manifesting any signs of this beforehand?

While infant mortality of new coils is certainly a possibility it does not seem to be a problem based on the lack of posts on this subject of either a new car manifesting new coil problems or replacement coils proving to be bad.

You can be pedantic when it suits you. While the coils obviously do not experience physical wear there appears to be some degradation that affects their performance. Obviously some coils experience some form of degradation (which I referred to be "wear") that requires their replacement.

Circadian rhythm? How you believe a car can possess a characteristic that is only known to be possessed by a number of living creatures including humans, animals, even plants is beyond me.

If you do not understand the benefit from changing say 4 coils or plugs at one time you are beyond help. I suppose you wash dishes one dish at a time? Pick up one thing at the store at a time? Make no side errands on your way to/from work?

The engine controller does measure differences in performance of each cylinder it does so by measuring the acceleration each cylinder contributes to the flywheel during its power stroke. If it detects an under (or over) performing cylinder it logs a misfire error code. What the misfire ultimately is caused by has to be investigated but in many cases it is a coil. If you can't grasp the concept that say 4 coils have been in service for a good number of miles and time and one acts up to cause a misfire that the others could also be due to be replaced then you are beyond hope.

The rest of your response is just too silly to reply to. It is clear you have really nothing of any value to contribute.
 
  #13  
Old 06-17-2019, 08:15 AM
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You can replace just the broken coil pack. I've done it several times without an issue on countless MINI's so far. one of them has a red coil pack on 1 cylinder, and 3 black coils on the rest, no issues whatsoever. AND they are some Bosch some Delphi, still no issues. Delphi has a tighter fit, and sometimes the boot separates from the coil body. The same applies on a bunch of BMW N-series motors, too.
 
  #14  
Old 06-19-2019, 07:29 AM
The_Kehoes Yolo
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Just purchased an 08 Clubman s and have been doing some piece of mind maintenance. When I first got the car it ran good although if you ran it through the entire RPM range it would sometimes show the half power light. No codes were set at least that my Generic scan tool could read. Waiting on the Schwaben tool to arrive. Anyway As part of my services I did new Bosch plugs and a set of Bavarian Autosport coil packs from ECS Tuning and now it revs slightly faster and it will rev to redline without any issues. The old plugs looked fine that I replaced, they were NGK parts so I'm thinking perhaps the coils or a coil pack were getting weak and under full boost the ignition wasn't up to task and the ECU pulled back timing nd boost.
 
  #15  
Old 06-23-2019, 12:57 PM
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I am not about to dispute Way, he has been at this much longer than I, but I did just what you mentioned. I went on realOEM.com and found the PN for the coils I needed, then bought them from Delphi through Amazon. Paid about $125 for all 4. They are exactly the same as the OEM from everything I can tell, and have been working beautifully for about a year and a half now. But, that said, before I bought them, I bought s set of “performance” coils.....huge mistake, misfire city! So I do agree fully with Way about the aftermarket coils, the ones I got from Delphi have been great. And I Do Not Drive Like A Grandma! Ha ha
 
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