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Boost leak / coolant leak

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Old Dec 14, 2011 | 06:29 PM
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Boost leak / coolant leak

I posted this on another forum so I will post the initial post and the update post.

After installing the FMIC I noticed I would hold boost at about 17.5 psi (about 40*F). Two weeks later I installed the catless DP, and 3 days later I notice I peak at 14.5 psi and then it drops off to 12.5-13.5psi and holds.

After the FMIC I thought the low end response was sluggish and had a bit of powerless lag, so i thought it may have been a boost leak, and if so it got worse today. But maybe this was the DV too.

My thought is with the catless DP, boost is building quicker, and thus has a larger impact force on the DV when boosting, which may have been enough to tear it.

I'll open up the DV tonight and see if its OK, if so, I suppose I will look @ the fmic inlet/outlet but I am pretty sure they're tight.


Later update



So I checked the DV and its in one piece, not torn, spring still has food compression. Cleaned it up and put it back on. Then noticed the wm fitting that screws into the plastic hose was turntable by hand.. I tighten it up, thinking this must have been it. Start her up, same thing, peaks at about 14.5 and drops off to 13. My figure of 16 earlier was off. In some gears the psi is different. Sometimes in 2nd it will struggle to get over 11 at all.

Tightened up the fmic hoses, still same.

Side note, coolant got very low. On Sunday when installing the dp, the coolant was just above the low mark (which is about a month after topping it off). Today it was way under the low mark. Getting under the car I realized there is coolant marks all over from the back of the engine (firewall) to past the flex pipe. Looks to be coming from the thermostat housing. Will have to replace this. But, this wouldn't cause a boost problem right? They should be independent systems.

More side notes. Saw pending codes P0300, 301, 302, 303, which all point to cyl 1-4 misfire. I am thinking I'm pointing this at the hpfp. So if I didn't have a boost leak, would the hpfp be a possible cause? In terms of not being able to supply enough Fuel to make the boost?

Tried stock tune after this, and for the quick two miles home from my friends I saw 10.5-11psi. Couldn't get 13-14 for over boost. Also in third punching it would hold at 7psi for maybe 500 rpms then start climbing again.


This is all with no wm spraying btw.

Honestly I know the horror stories, but aside from groaning clutch and timing chain and the warped valve cover, I haven't had anything really disabilitating till now

Please help!?
 

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Old Dec 15, 2011 | 10:36 AM
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What is the current temperature outside? seriously this does make a difference.


Originally Posted by SooperCuperErik
I posted this on another forum so I will post the initial post and the update post.

After installing the FMIC I noticed I would hold boost at about 17.5 psi (about 40*F). Two weeks later I installed the catless DP, and 3 days later I notice I peak at 14.5 psi and then it drops off to 12.5-13.5psi and holds.

After the FMIC I thought the low end response was sluggish and had a bit of powerless lag, so i thought it may have been a boost leak, and if so it got worse today. But maybe this was the DV too.

My thought is with the catless DP, boost is building quicker, and thus has a larger impact force on the DV when boosting, which may have been enough to tear it.

I'll open up the DV tonight and see if its OK, if so, I suppose I will look @ the fmic inlet/outlet but I am pretty sure they're tight.


Later update



So I checked the DV and its in one piece, not torn, spring still has food compression. Cleaned it up and put it back on. Then noticed the wm fitting that screws into the plastic hose was turntable by hand.. I tighten it up, thinking this must have been it. Start her up, same thing, peaks at about 14.5 and drops off to 13. My figure of 16 earlier was off. In some gears the psi is different. Sometimes in 2nd it will struggle to get over 11 at all.

Tightened up the fmic hoses, still same.

Side note, coolant got very low. On Sunday when installing the dp, the coolant was just above the low mark (which is about a month after topping it off). Today it was way under the low mark. Getting under the car I realized there is coolant marks all over from the back of the engine (firewall) to past the flex pipe. Looks to be coming from the thermostat housing. Will have to replace this. But, this wouldn't cause a boost problem right? They should be independent systems.

More side notes. Saw pending codes P0300, 301, 302, 303, which all point to cyl 1-4 misfire. I am thinking I'm pointing this at the hpfp. So if I didn't have a boost leak, would the hpfp be a possible cause? In terms of not being able to supply enough Fuel to make the boost?

Tried stock tune after this, and for the quick two miles home from my friends I saw 10.5-11psi. Couldn't get 13-14 for over boost. Also in third punching it would hold at 7psi for maybe 500 rpms then start climbing again.


This is all with no wm spraying btw.

Honestly I know the horror stories, but aside from groaning clutch and timing chain and the warped valve cover, I haven't had anything really disabilitating till now

Please help!?
 
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Old Dec 15, 2011 | 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigprfed22
What is the current temperature outside? seriously this does make a difference.
Anywhere between 30-45F, which is the same as its been for the last few weeks.

The reason for lower boost in the winter/colder weather would be attributed to denser ambient air (colder), thus engine needs to produce less boost to hit target power levels. However, before yesterday, and on colder days, it still hit 17 psi. In the summer this tune hits 19 and can peak 21 even when very hot out. Watching it bleed off/build back up while wot makes it apparent its not normal. Also, power levels are noticeably less.
 
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Old Dec 15, 2011 | 11:47 AM
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try resetting the ecu, disconnect the neg. pump the brakes a few times to get all the elctrons out of the brake circuit, wait 5 minutes. re connect. This will clear all adaptations so if the problem persists we can move towards mechanical issues.




factory ecu boost limits are determined by ambient temp sensor in the front of the bumper.

Originally Posted by SooperCuperErik
Anywhere between 30-45F, which is the same as its been for the last few weeks.

The reason for lower boost in the winter/colder weather would be attributed to denser ambient air (colder), thus engine needs to produce less boost to hit target power levels. However, before yesterday, and on colder days, it still hit 17 psi. In the summer this tune hits 19 and can peak 21 even when very hot out. Watching it bleed off/build back up while wot makes it apparent its not normal. Also, power levels are noticeably less.
 
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Old Dec 15, 2011 | 11:55 AM
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had already done that when i pulled the DV, no go =\
 
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Old Dec 15, 2011 | 11:58 AM
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co worker who has a experience with audi/bmw is pretty sure that the leaking thermostat housing is throwing off boost due to water temps and such, im a bit weary, but it has potential i suppose. monitoring water temps they arent getting too hot, but sitting in traffic i notice the temps go down to 200's to 190's if sitting long enough, but if i rev it slightly or start rolling, temps shoot back up to operating.... thinking the coolant isn't circulating while at a standstill and its reading coolant thats cooling off, or the coolant temp sensor is done.

other friend says since the hpfp seems to be on its way out, if its unable to provide the X amount of fuel when requested, the ecu compensates the air to hit target AFRs (since AFRs are in check while driving), and to accomodate less fuel, it draws less boost...
 
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Old Dec 15, 2011 | 12:13 PM
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The latter sounds like a possibilitiy.
 
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Old Dec 15, 2011 | 07:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Bigprfed22
try resetting the ecu, disconnect the neg. pump the brakes a few times to get all the elctrons out of the brake circuit, wait 5 minutes. re connect. This will clear all adaptations so if the problem persists we can move towards mechanical issues.




factory ecu boost limits are determined by ambient temp sensor in the front of the bumper.
That's interesting. I had to relocate my ambient temp sensor after my FMIC install, and now it's always reading high. My boost numbers are also lower. I should perhaps find a better place for it
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 05:19 AM
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But higher temp should = more boost, because it thinks the air is less dense and thus needs the turbine to work harder to generate the same power.

Regardless, I feel the MAP sensor should be keeping this in check, the fact that its not reaching target boost should be noted by the car.

How much lower is your boost?
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 08:16 AM
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SooperCuperErik, I suggest you trace the cause of your misfire (as per your fault codes in your original post).
The ECU will retract boost level is it seeing the engine struggling to combust; that's common throughout the Audi / VW / BMW / MINI rhelm.

On the latter, I see boost levels higher in colder weather than warmer weather.
That's due to the air charge temperature, where when the air temp is high enough to produce an auto-ignition (knock) condition, the ECU retracts boost to compensate.

- Erik
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 08:26 AM
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^^^I'm with him lol

Having blown an N14 myself....the fact that you have multiple cylinder misfires is far more concerning to me than the fact that your boost seems low lol
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 08:45 AM
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It was a pending code, it never threw it. I've cleared the PENDING code and driven 100 miles since then and haven't seen it come up again. Again, feeling how the car rolls in 1st after a cold start and how much it stumbles, it seems almost certain that is when there MAY HAVE been a misfire. Its not constantly misfiring as I feel thats what it seems like its coming off as.

As far as boost and temperature, this is why people hit boost cuts in hot weather, no? Because the ECU compensates for the hot weather and low density air by raising boost to reach target boost levels. Thats why when its cold out, we don't see boost cuts (those who are tuned that is). When its hot, it cuts frequently, especially seeing ambient temps over 80 and IAT's above that.

I should throw in that the car is running perfectly smooth (besides the 10 seconds of stumble on cold start), even with the lower boost, it still pulls, just not as hard as when hitting target boost.
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 09:07 AM
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From: Broomfield, CO
Originally Posted by SooperCuperErik
As far as boost and temperature, this is why people hit boost cuts in hot weather, no? Because the ECU compensates for the hot weather and low density air by raising boost to reach target boost levels.
No, just the opposite actually.
The boost cut is because of too much pressure (and therefore heat) in the combustion chamber causing the air/fuel mixture to detonate before the spark plug firing.
Boost is reduced because of the auto-ignition, and therefore the amount of fuel to match for stoichometric mixture, creating a less powerful output.

Remember, the ECU doesn't try to match a certain boost level on the sole reason of 'it needs to be a a certain level'.
Boost is based on parameters surrounding knock, and fuel burn efficiency.

- Erik
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by SooperCuperErik
As far as boost and temperature, this is why people hit boost cuts in hot weather, no? Because the ECU compensates for the hot weather and low density air by raising boost to reach target boost levels. Thats why when its cold out, we don't see boost cuts (those who are tuned that is). When its hot, it cuts frequently, especially seeing ambient temps over 80 and IAT's above that.
Yes correct Erik...seems counterintuitive but the ECU will compensate for higher temps by increasing boost. Living in AZ and spending countless hours on dynos...I can certainly verify this. Seeing as warm air is less dense it tries to compensate by increasing boost pressure. It will also compensate in the same fashion for high altitudes, where the air is also less dense of course. The 135/335/535i all do this as well.

In regards to temps, there is a boost vs inlet temp table in the ECU which dictates this.

Originally Posted by bluefox280
No, just the opposite actually.
The boost cut is because of too much pressure (and therefore heat) in the combustion chamber causing the air/fuel mixture to detonate before the spark plug firing.
Boost is reduced because of the auto-ignition, and therefore the amount of fuel to match for stoichometric mixture, creating a less powerful output.

Remember, the ECU doesn't try to match a certain boost level on the sole reason of 'it needs to be a a certain level'.
Boost is based on parameters surrounding knock, and fuel burn efficiency.

- Erik
Sorry but the boost cut Erik is referring to has nothing to do with detonation. It's caused by the MAP sensor seeing roughly 22psi and it triggers an internal voltage limit within the ECU to cut boost by completely dumping it. Detonation can occur at any boost level....it doesn't magically occur right at 22 psi.
 

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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 09:15 AM
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Have you tried a comp test?




Originally Posted by SooperCuperErik
It was a pending code, it never threw it. I've cleared the PENDING code and driven 100 miles since then and haven't seen it come up again. Again, feeling how the car rolls in 1st after a cold start and how much it stumbles, it seems almost certain that is when there MAY HAVE been a misfire. Its not constantly misfiring as I feel thats what it seems like its coming off as.

As far as boost and temperature, this is why people hit boost cuts in hot weather, no? Because the ECU compensates for the hot weather and low density air by raising boost to reach target boost levels. Thats why when its cold out, we don't see boost cuts (those who are tuned that is). When its hot, it cuts frequently, especially seeing ambient temps over 80 and IAT's above that.

I should throw in that the car is running perfectly smooth (besides the 10 seconds of stumble on cold start), even with the lower boost, it still pulls, just not as hard as when hitting target boost.
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 09:50 AM
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Compression test.. I think you mean pressure test? Compression test would tell me about cylinders, pressure test would find leaks up to the intake manifold. The boost pressure is measured within the intake manifold, so I would be doing a pressure test to find any leaks in the tract.

I am fixing the coolant leak when the part comes in on tuesday, and the car will be going to the dealer (first time out of warranty) to see if they can verify the hpfp is not functioning properly. If so, it will be replaced under warranty (the warranty that MINI extended on this part). I will wait till this is done to then start looking deeper for the boost leak, if it is still there.

@fox, if we were detonating then there'd be lots of catastrophic failures among almost every tuned person on these boards. As Blake said, the "boost cut" I speak of is the MAP sensor seeing 22psi (which in relative terms to its voltage) triggers a safety cut and drops psi to about 5psi, until the throttle is lifted and reapplied.

I agree with you the ecu does not make a certain X amount of boost, and instead relies on MAF and MAP readings, with ecu maps that try to hit a target power for a certain RPM. This is why, blake, and I, among others, installed our aquamist water/methanol kits to read off IDC (injector duty cycle), not MAP sensors, since the boost pressure varies each time you apply the throttle. However, since its trying to reach "target" power values, --when its hot, the injectors dump more fuel because of increased heat, and in combination to meet AFR values per RPM, need more air, which results in more boost. The opposite for when it is cold. One thing that does get reduced when the air is less dense/hotter, is timing gets pulled back. You will see and feel this when you're upping 120+*F IATs.

If it were true about the cutting because of too much pressure/heat within the cumbustion chamber, I would theoretically see more boost with my W/M kit as combustion chamber temps are greatly reduced by injecting w/m, but in the end, we still get boost cuts with the W/M.

Just to add , I believe a factory jcw programmed car allows to see a higher MAP reading (more boost) than an S tuned car.
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 09:52 AM
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No i mean compression test to make sure you arent loosing cyl pressure due to metal fatigue breaks or something that could be catastrophic. just to rule that out.



You are correct ,JCW ecu's can translate higher boost readings as well.


Originally Posted by SooperCuperErik
Compression test.. I think you mean pressure test? Compression test would tell me about cylinders, pressure test would find leaks up to the intake manifold. The boost pressure is measured within the intake manifold, so I would be doing a pressure test to find any leaks in the tract.

I am fixing the coolant leak when the part comes in on tuesday, and the car will be going to the dealer (first time out of warranty) to see if they can verify the hpfp is not functioning properly. If so, it will be replaced under warranty (the warranty that MINI extended on this part). I will wait till this is done to then start looking deeper for the boost leak, if it is still there.

@fox, if we were detonating then there'd be lots of catastrophic failures among almost every tuned person on these boards. As Blake said, the "boost cut" I speak of is the MAP sensor seeing 22psi (which in relative terms to its voltage) triggers a safety cut and drops psi to about 5psi, until the throttle is lifted and reapplied.

I agree with you the ecu does not make a certain X amount of boost, and instead relies on MAF and MAP readings, with ecu maps that try to hit a target power for a certain RPM. This is why, blake, and I, among others, installed our aquamist water/methanol kits to read off IDC (injector duty cycle), not MAP sensors, since the boost pressure varies each time you apply the throttle. However, since its trying to reach "target" power values, --when its hot, the injectors dump more fuel because of increased heat, and in combination to meet AFR values per RPM, need more air, which results in more boost. The opposite for when it is cold. One thing that does get reduced when the air is less dense/hotter, is timing gets pulled back. You will see and feel this when you're upping 120+*F IATs.

If it were true about the cutting because of too much pressure/heat within the cumbustion chamber, I would theoretically see more boost with my W/M kit as combustion chamber temps are greatly reduced by injecting w/m, but in the end, we still get boost cuts with the W/M.

Just to add , I believe a factory jcw programmed car allows to see a higher MAP reading (more boost) than an S tuned car.
 

Last edited by Bigprfed22; Dec 16, 2011 at 10:16 AM.
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigprfed22
No i mean cpression test to make sure you arent loosing cyl pressure due to metal fatigue breaks or something that could be catastrophic. just to rule that out.
Always adviseable with a 50k+ R56
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 10:17 AM
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Also, all tune limits are overidden by ambient temps
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 11:24 AM
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yeah, but boost would still read up to target, and there'd be power loss ontop of that. But yes, as a side issue it'd definitely be something to look at as a general overview.
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 11:42 AM
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When you say target you mean full boost? What im saying is that at anything under 56degs F full boost will not be the same, I run 15-16.5/17 in anything under 40 degs and 19-20 during anything above 56 degs.


What im saying is that the "target" boost level will be over ridden by ambient temps.


What are you referring to?
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 11:56 AM
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Where are you located?

(Side note I was referring to intake manifold pressure vs power loss in cylinder due to compression loss)

But, target yes i mean full, and target boost will depend on target power, but, normally rolling into WOT in under 50F I will still see 17.5 max. Right now I see 12-13, and 15 if I stomp on it to activate overboost. The key is, even though the boost may change from temp, the car is noticeably slower. It takes longer to climb through the revs, and overall pull/seat of pants is certainly gone. Its been under 56F here for the last 1.5 months for most of the days, and I haven't seen/had this issue till tuesday
 
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Old Dec 16, 2011 | 11:58 AM
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Im in nothern VA, now i understand what your saying. Seriously try a Comp check. since resetting your adaptations did not cure the symptoms, you can cancel out tune/electronic related issues. Something mechanical or hpfp related problem. Have you checked your plugs?




Originally Posted by SooperCuperErik
Where are you located?

(Side note I was referring to intake manifold pressure vs power loss in cylinder due to compression loss)

But, target yes i mean full, and target boost will depend on target power, but, normally rolling into WOT in under 50F I will still see 17.5 max. Right now I see 12-13, and 15 if I stomp on it to activate overboost. The key is, even though the boost may change from temp, the car is noticeably slower. It takes longer to climb through the revs, and overall pull/seat of pants is certainly gone. Its been under 56F here for the last 1.5 months for most of the days, and I haven't seen/had this issue till tuesday
 
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