I would refit my car with a beefed-up blown Tritec

 

Great point. If a problem is not derived from the computer, it is either due to a faulty batch of parts, an entire run of parts that is faulty in construction, or a design flaw in the parts or system. The fact that Mini is focusing on changing the design of the parts indicates a design flaw and is why I said, in post 885:

Good luck folks.

 

Ive already posted my cold start issues, but what started as a bad knock cold start, now sounds about like a blown engine trying to run. Im taking mine into the dealer soon, so it will be interesting to see what they will do when there is an undeniable issue going on. Along with the noise the engine is also hesitating and cutting out until it warms up. The noise does seem to decrease above the 2k range at least, but it still sounds pretty bad everywhere.

I have a 2007, and the issue was there from the start but really has deteriorated through the 2nd winter. This might back the oil starvation theorey, and its just getting worse.

 

If it would help I am going to ask our two MINI service advisors how many people have reported the problem in our dealership. They should be able to give me a fairly accurate number.

So far out of the 25 JCWs we've encountered two so far have the problem - my personal JCW and another JCW owner who's active in the MINI club. I actually think the problem occurs more frequently than it's reported. I have demo vehicles with less than 600 miles that are also making the noise on occasion.

 

Krut, inside statistics from the Service Department at MOS would be quite revealing if they are a true indicator of the number of complaints. Your offer is most generous, much appreciated, and a breath of fresh air amidst all of the misinformation and secrecy. I hope you can dig up some numbers and share them with NAM.

My only nagging concern is that as an MA it might be difficult for you to avoid the perception of bias among the masses no matter how honorable your intentions. Way too many people at their home dealerships have been buffaloed by their MAs with the standard "it's normal" reply to their rattle concerns. I know you don't think that, but you're bucking the historical trend. Kudos for making the attempt.

 

I have a build date of 5/08 and have not had any cold start knock issues. In fact I haven't had any problems and no complaints of the car. Currently at 4,000 miles.

 

A recent post on the UK-based MINI2 forum ...

Mine has had the cold start rattle since I purchased the car used, from MINI, last January. It's a December 2006. Last year it had a modified tensioner, exhaust cam sprocket, vanos unit ( the inlet hub), chain, guides, crank sprocket and all associated bolts. It fixed the noise for 2 weeks.

Last week it had the new new modified tensioner, guides, crank sprocket, chain etc but not the vanos unit or exhaust cam sprocket. There is a new BMW measure out for this cold start noise, basically they measure how much slack is in the chain, if it's within tolerances then just the modified tensioner is put on, nothing else. If the tolerances are out, then the tensioner is fitted with the things I've just listed. I know of 4 cars that have had the new measure carried out, none of them are making the noise anymore. Mine has only been a week, but it's all good so far.

I can get part numbers if required. The new tensioner is currently back ordered in AG, and they're on hold at BMW, which basically means a manual order has to be submitted to BMW UK to chassis number. This is to stop dealers ordering lots for stock, as AG are currently having trouble laying their hands on ones for VOR situations.

I'm not sure what VOR and AG stands for, but looks like BMW may be getting a good fix zeroed in. There are also several other UK posts now from people who have had this version installed for several weeks with no recurrence of the death rattle on start-up.

 

This is sounding very promising to me. BMW is going to fix this. Sad they are the ones having to fix the engine they did not design. But if this is truly the fix then i give it 6 months and every one will go sign up with this fix as part of routine service as prevnetative care for there mini. Also if this the fix then what my friend who used to work on jags said is correct it is just the chaing. True a snap chain = death but he said they came out with a new chain and sproket and that fixed all the jags seems like a simple fix, he told me there was no long term damage from the horrid noise on the jags so lets hope that is the case with the mini

 

what made the chain go out of spec? The rattle? If so, there are a bunch of other fixes that they've deployed that haven't done the job.... This seems to be just more stuff around slapping rocker arm symptoms.

don't give them a break for "having to fix an engine they didn't design", as they had hands in the design, and a cost/benefit metric that said that this was the way to go. BMW/Mini is one of the main chefs in this particular kitchen, so to speak.

Matt

 

They might have been the chefs but they were not the line cooks.
You ask great questions why did this happen why did it come out of spec.
I guees i am just used to car companies doing this. My RSX had a horrid tranny for a solid year till acura owned up and fixed it but gave every owner **** for it trying to blame up for every thing like a air intake is causing my 2nd gear snycro to fail right.

My friends in the 350z are now on there 2nd transmissions all of this just seems par the the course these days

I agreed demand more we deserve it on cars that cost as much as the mini.

I am just jadded and figure it will only happen when they have stomaced enough buy backs for the same issue and have been sued for it.

So far i do not see the class action lawsuit rolling around yet, it seems that is what it takes to get there attention these days

 

I don't buy that arguement. Any technical problem that does not have an obvious source is, by definition, a possible design flaw, so Mini HAS to investigate the problem as such, regardless of how often it happens.

However, it's pretty obvious that I'm "spitting into the wind" by taking this stance, so I will stop now.

One thing I wish for is better technical information for these engines. I know from a press release I have that both the regular and turbocharged engines share the same design base, but the turbo engine has different bearing inserts and other different parts scattered throughout the engines, which makes sense. I've love to see parts diagrams for both the regular and turbo engines' timing chain assemblies to see how they're different. Not that I feel it's likely I'll see anything that BMW-Mini engineers have missed.

 

You can look up parts diagrams on Real OEM if you're feeling adventurous. I just compared my S car built 8/07 to a non-S built 8/07 and there are different part numbers through-out the timing chain area.

Cooper S
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...24&hg=11&fg=25

Cooper
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...51&hg=11&fg=25

 

Ken, you are not spitting into the wind. You and I haven't always agreed in the past, but I do agree with you that we really have no idea how widespread or limited the problem is. We just really cannot make any conclusions as to the size of the problem as has been experienced to date. We all want it to be definitely diagnosed and resolved however, and ASAP.

Your thought is on the right track. How are the turbo and regular different - seems the clues have to lie therein.

 

Was just reading this posted on the "Bentley Publishers Tech Thread"
thought I'd pass on their thoughts:
"Sounds like the tensioner is bleeding off oil causing it to collapse over time. This does seem to be a problem I have heard about a few times now. Lets hope they geta fix going quickly."

http://tech.bentleypublishers.com/th...38051&tstart=0

 

MY car (2008 MCS) has been making that noise too since the beginning i bought it like 9 months ago...
It was a kinda low noise, so i thought o well its normal... but when its cold out it gets worse, and since my car sleeps in a slight incline... im thinking maybe this influences it.

I took it to the dealer today because i thought i should get an oil change and check the noise and what not. (it was 15k kms).

The dude was like.. your still 14k kms from the 1st service. And i said well ok, but what about this noise, maybe im low on oil?
we checked the oil, and to our surprise it was so low it could barely be read. So i left it there and told them to change the oil, not just put in new oil.

Im thinking i shouldnt have to pay for this because, since when is a new car going to be low on oil ( i havent changed the oil myself so there shouldn't be any reason for it to be low).

any thoughts please be so kind and give em out... im talking to the dealer tomorrow and lets hope they dont make me pay.

 

I don't buy the tensioner argument. Even if it bleeds down when the car is stopped, it should get all the oil it needs on startup instantly.

And while cars can be a long way from oil change, you do have to check levels regularly. All engines consume a bit of oil, and with very long change intervals, having to top up shouldn't come as a surprise.

Matt

 

well you do have a point there...
but it was dangerously low on oil im thinking.. ( not normal) thats what may have been causing my problems... my car is new barely 15k kms. (9k miles +-)
so i dont think it "drinks" that much oil in such a short time.

 

In addition you'll notice that the info in the Bentley thread is dated compared to the related info in this NAM thread and its companions. The discussion catalyst in the Bentley thread (OldMGuy) is also helping to lead the charge here on NAM. In fact, he's the one who discovered the history of catastrophic engine failures related to this issue at his local dealership, which happened since his last Bentley post.

He's been part of the group faithfully monitoring developments across the pond regarding "Chain Tensioner Attempt Version 3.0" and reports from owners who've had it installed, and is helping us try to track down the associated part number.

 

a bit off topic but curious, did you use the nice and easy break-in method or the "drive it hard" method?

 

Well, it is a British car, you know. My manual for my old British car says to check the oil level DAILY. I laughed when I read that.

 

I was looking at an old (late 50s early 60s) MG 4x4, and when I read the manual it said to basically take the whole care appart and check bolt torques every 6 months! It was a cool little thing though, power take off and all.

And FWIW, new cars drink a bit more as surfaces mate.

Matt

 

OK everyone - here's the latest timing chain fix info and part numbers, posted today on the UK-based MINI2 forum:

Not had time to get part numbers today, but the PuMA measure number is 10686850-12 and it was released on the 24/02/09,so it's pretty new.

Roma, if you give your dealer this PuMA measure number, that should be sufficient for your car to be sorted.

EDIT: Mike Ken, at the bottom of the PuMA measure it states, and I quote " If at any point an engine replacement is authorised via Customer Service or Technical Dept, make sure the latest modified tensioner is then swapped across from the original engine to the replacement (modified tensioners not supplied on RMFD engines until 03.2009 ) ".

So basically, that means that dealers should be putting modified tensioners on new engines, until new engines are supplied with them from stock. Ask for proof of this. The part number for the new tensioner is 11.31.7.598.956.

I've sent this to our Portland, OR service reps, but no reply back as to whether this repair is now authorized in the US ...

 

...which is why I went on to explain that my conclusion that the problem is very widespread is not solely based on BMW/MINIs statement that it is a design flaw, but also based on the number of people who have had engines and entire cars replaced, only to have the problem return. Do you not agree that for multiple people to have replacement engines and replacement vehicles exhibit this same issue it would seem apparent that the problem must be very widespread? Sure, we don't have a large enough sample size to draw a concrete conclusion, but common sense seems to indicate a very high percentage of vehicles are affected. If this percentage was a low as 5%, what are the chances that any one person out of the relatively small number of people in these threads would have their engine replaced, only to have the replacement have the problem? How about two members? Or three? More? Sure, it could happen, but it certainly isn't very likely. We also have many people on here and MINI2 who have checked other vehicles at the dealer, which also turned out to have the rattle. Again, this would indicate a very high percentage of vehicles are affected. I only know one other local R56 MCS owner personally, and he too has this problem. Obviously 2/2 is not enough to conclude that 100% of vehicles are affected, but while we can argue about how common this problem is, I don't think anyone can argue that it isn't common.

Now, how common does a problem need to be before it would (or should) be considered a design flaw?

 

Excellent post...thanks much.

Now we hold our collective breath to see if any retrofitted MINIs receiving this new replacement part in the UK, or those rolling off the assembly line after 02/09, report a relapse.

One can always hope...

 

How do you know when it is a design flaw? When BMW designs a new part to replace the old part.

How do you know when your auto maker is behaving badly? When it tells customers that the symptom is "normal" when it is in the process of re-designing the part and has already replaced engines for catastrophic failure.