I've been in a slow burn all day over an incident that happened on this forum this morning that I need to get off my chest.A vendor made an announcement that there would soon be a service manual available and for those willing to pre order there would be a 10 dollar discount.all well and good.A member points out that the manual is available on Amazon for less money and posts the link and is summarily taken out on the carpet by Mark F. for not supporting participating vendors(read: vendors who pay money to advertise on NAM) and the link is erased by Mark .When the member gets justifyably mad over the editing ,his post, chastising Mark, is erased also and the thread becomes mysteriously locked to further comment.I think this sucks,big time.Just because a vendor pays to advertise on this forum,doesn't give them the right to gouge the price, or the moderator the right to edit out comment.I just happened to be "there" when all this went down and I saw it happen in the blink of an eye.How much other material is being similarly "edited".How long will THIS thread last ?If I can get a cheaper price on an item by buying it from Amazon.com ,who's to say I shouldn't hear about it on this forum? I'd love to hear from you, Mark, about how you can justify deciding what gets posted and what gets edited when the site guildlines have not been compromised.

 

it's incorrect to call this a "free speech" issue. the GOVERMENT isn't using force to restrict what you're saying or publishing. that is the context of the political right of "free speech."

this is a private forum. by right, it's owner, mark, can make whatever rules he wants OR NO RULES. it's NOT YOUR forum, it's his.

you have the right to start your own forum and do what you want with it.

 

I agree with flyboy. Since this is a private board, not government sponsored, Mark makes the rules. It's unfortunate that he did what he did, and more unfortunate that vendors are gouging the membership, but Mark was within his rights. I'm sure if that kind of behavior keeps up, he won't have much of a membership left...

 

The issue is that I screwed up. The Vendor Announcements forum should have been configured from the start as a forum where paying vendors can post announcements about products/services they have to offer. It was not intended to have follow up posting allowed but we accidently left it on. My mistake.

The issue for this particular reply to the thread is that it was not the appropriate place to do it (and wouldn't have happened if we had configured the VA forum properly) I have no problem having members of the site telling each other about good deals they have found but vendors pay for the right to announce in this particular forum and the response that was posted to their announcement put that vendor relationship in jeapordy. In this case it is a company that has been in business many years supporting Classic owners and now is supporting new MINI owners.

My other concern is that with a link to Amazon in a vendor announcement is that Amazon derives income from North American Motoring and it does not support it in any way. Again, there are MINI-related vendors which support the community which I believe we should support in one way or another to continue their interest in the MINI and support our obsessions going forward.

I realize this could have been handled better but at this point the behavior of the Vendor Announcement area has been modified to prevent this type of problem going forward and everyone is free to pass links to the Amazon version of the service manual in the appropriate forums of the site. That said I strongly encourage everyone to try, whenever possible, to support the vendors that take the time to answer your questions, help you to pick out the product you need for your particular application, and work to develop and provide products for the MINI.

Mark

 

Thanks for the explanation, Mark!

 

I would argue it's justifiable on the grounds that -

1. the internet is not a democracy

2. we aren't paying for this service, and the site guidelines probably shouldn't be viewed as a binding contract.

I saw the thread you are refering to, and agree that the situation could have been handled better. The explaination (misconfiged Vendor section) makes sense and is appreciated.

The admins and mods should be given credit for making this site as enjoyable as it is. There is very little of the BS that I've seen overrun similar forums.

 

The moderators and myself do our best to keep it as open as possible. I don't like moderating the opinions of others. That said there is a constant balance that I and the other mods have to find...Keeping discussions open and lively while also trying to keep it civil.

To further complicate it there is also the balance between vendors and members of the site. The fact is that vendors support the operation of the site and allow me to work on it full time (working to make new features available as I can get them developed) which helps the member community and information base we have to continue growing. I like to think of this as a symbiotic relationship. Sometimes though it is very easy to damage a relationship with a vendor just by what a member on the site posts. I'm never opposed to providing feedback to a vendor as long as its done in a constructive manner. Vendors need feedback to improve their businesses and products. If you see something a vendor is doing that could be improved on take a second to PM them or email them with some constructive feedback rather than immediately posting to the site. Give them a chance to respond.

Relative to the service manual in question I have a relationship with Bentley as well and had been considering offer the manual through the NAM store. I had not looked at Amazon's pricing and now that I have I doubt that I will offer the manual for sale even though the sales of the book would have helped to support the site.

I hope this helps to provide a little background on the issue at hand as well as the balance we try to strike on a daily basis.

Mark

 

My link to the Amazon deal is still where I posted it on 8-11.
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=27718
Post 15.

What conspiracy?

 

Without getting into the depths of it.

1 I personally will pay a little more to support a MINI supporting vendor. I would also do the same for a small business owner rather than mail order things fron the absolute cheapest place online.

2 To gouge a price on an item is to jack up a price of an item in high demand that is a necessity to the consumers, like water after a bad storm or the like. Vendors can well charge what they choose to, the margins in this business are minimal. If you do not like the price do not buy the product.

3 To put such a link in a vendor announcement is just plain rude. If you feel a vendor is charging too much, write them privately or don't buy the product. If you feel you absolutely MUST post a reply do not include a link to his competition.

4 Remember this forum as well as Mark's INCOME is paid for by these vendors without whom you would not have this board to voice your opinion on. This is a service provided by Mark, and paid for by these vendors. Mark will do what he feels is in their best interest and in his, it is a business.

 

I agree with xanthus and totally support Mark, this site and vendors that help to sponsor it's existence.

You can go elsewhere for a cheap price but we do something here on NAM to help each other that is special and goes beyond face value.

I'd pay a bit more by buying from sponsors to help NAM exist. It's always your choice.

 

just for fun - can someone post what Vendor is offering the MINI Service Manual?

[edit]; nice to see Seven Enterprises carrying the Bentley manual, it's worth every penny they're asking. I had a Bentley manual for my ole' 3-series, and it was worth its weight in platinum how much it helped me out!

 

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ad.php?t=29591

 

i dont know if this little bit of testimonial helps, but when i saw that miniswag.com was charging about $10 more for the same exact steering wheel covers than another website was (a non-mini related vendor) and was charging for shipping while the other site was not, i emailed them and asked if they could do a price match.

they told me no, but strangely enough, they lowered the prices on their product to match the price of the website a couple days later. They still charge more since they are charging for shipping, but... hey. lower price, and not such a hit to buy with them anymore.

this way, we (the consumers) still win, and nobody has to lose face. Now if ALL the vendors would price match... sometimes, its hard to get NAM-vendors to price match to other NAM-vendors. yar.

har.

 

holdenontoit, thanks for the support.

I was shocked to see the link vanish and then the posts as well

Xanthus, why can't I find more people like you to sell to!

You are looking at paying $30 more, with postage, for a $90 book..

If that's fine with you, then please let me know what else I might sell you at similar margins in the future!!

As for it being rude to post a reply that pointed out a better deal, I respectfuly disagree with you on that one.

Any way, the vendor forum is now closed to direct comment, so you will have to check more carefuly in the future if you are keen to see if you are getting value for money or not.

As for me, I have my Bentley on order from Amazon... roll on September.

Chris.

 

Xanthus, did it ever occur to you that Mark wouldn't have any vendors to charge for advertising on the site, if it wasn't for the multitude of MINI people that visit here.

So should we make sure the minority vendors are happy, or the majority MINI people, who drive the whole revenue chain any way

Should the forum guard vendor profit or ensure MINI owners best value

Just a different perspective on the situation for you to chew over.

Chris.

 

I did not specify on the prices of this item as I did not see the original post. I'd pay a LITTLE more for an item from a vendor I like than to buy it from a corporate clearing house making it hard as hell for a small business owner to survive.

As for not agreeing about posting links publicly like that, I point to the post by jinubob81 where the price was lowered later. PROPER persuasion from customers makes vendors alter their prices, not the equivalent of coming into their store yelling that you found a better price with their competition.

 

I see your point, and I did not say that a would be customer ought to just shut up, but to say that it would be better to PM them with your find and see if they alter their price.

Remember THIS forum is paid for by those vendors, there are PLENTY non-commercial forums around, and yes they are here because there are a ton of members for them to advertise to.

I am not saying that there ought to be nothing said to a vendor when there is a big price issue, but that it ought to take the form of a PM or similar PRIVATE communication.

 

So is $30 more for a $90 book, a 'little more' worth paying, or too much

As I pointed out to Mark, if I said I was selling the manual at that 'special' price, took the money of trusting NAM members, and then sourced the book with free delivery from Amazon, you'd say I was ripping people off

Chris.

 

I would agree on that price difference, though I stand my ground that it is more proper to PM the vendor and ask why the price is so high with him and so cheap elsewhere.

I agree with you, for the most part.

Now I'd pay $35 to know it goes to a MINI supporting vendor, or a small business.

For example I am shopping for dive gear, I'd easily pay $100 more TOTAL for a $3000 kit from the business owner that walked me through the choosing of the gear thaan save that little to help a corporate clearance house cut him out of the loop.

Perhapse the pricing was based on a % on his cost. HE may have gotten ripped off.

 

Well they still have a chance, as the book hasn't even shipped yet from Bentley!

They could:

1) Go back to Bentley with the Amazon price and demand a better wholesale deal

2) Re-adjust their own margins, asuming they buy cheaper than the Amazon retail price

3) Just buy the damn things from Amazon, lower their price, and agree to make a few bucks profit per book for the good of NAM and all MINIdom

Time will tell...........

Chris.

 

Look for the book elsewhere.

Amazon is, like usual the lowest....by a big margin.

VERRY annoying if you ask me.

Companies like that make it so hard for people to stay in business.

The people printing the books (or any manufacturers) sell at a better price when you can buy thousands of copies (or units) and thus you can undercut the people who cannot afford to lay out that kind of money.

After looking to see that he WAS cheaper than many for that item, if I get it, I will be getting it from him.

Those that prefer Amazon and the like would hate to live in the shopping hell that would exist if there were none but that type of place to buy. No support, no advice, no community, just one capitalist conglomerate of mega-corporations with voice activated machines answering the phones..... Ok I will end my possible rant.

Well this horse is glue.

 

In the end what I think we all would like to see is-

Vendors that do their best to provide quality products at a reasonable price with support for their customers

NAM members that help with questions, offer suggestions, feedback and provide an easy resource for MINI enthusiasts and prospective MINI owners.

And a website attractive enough to vendors to support and frequented enough by MINI owners worldwide willing and interested in customizing and enhancing their cars.

In order to reach this we need to have open communication and a willingness to strive to do better. It's not always going to go smoothly. Both vendors and buyers have made errors and learned along the way. To err is human.

 

Competition is a good thing for all involved including the competitors. Some compete based on price, service, quality, or a combination. They secure the customers they can most effectively serve and each customer gets what they pay for. It's for each vendor to determine whom they wish to serve and each customer to determine who they wish to patronize. Works rather well in most cases.

My finances are limited and I can't always afford the best. Wish I could.

I deal almost exclusively with a NAM sponsor. My choice. I rarely shop around, but sometimes do depending on a variety of factors. I'm extremely thankful to have the option.

I would hope the people we spend our money with would respect our need to sometimes go cheap. Again, limited funds. Please understand. If I save $30 here I can spend it there. Everyone wins.

God bless America.

 

to mark:thanks for the explanation of the post set up error,this helps a little.In response to xanthus who wants to paint seven enterprises as the David doing battle with the Amazon goliath:these are both internet offerings.You can't tell me that Amazon's overhead is less than Seven's,and besides, we are not talking about $90 vrs.$60,the $90 price is a pre registration special ($10 off the regular price) so we are really talking about $100 vrs. $60.I was in retail(bicycle sales and service) for 15 years,and I provided services to my customer that they could not obtain from the national discount houses who advertised in Bicycling magazine(Nashbar etc.)I carried nuts and bolts and tubes in every size .I will not pretend to tell Seven Enterprises how to set their margin.Everyone in business does that based on cost and overhead.That being said I repeat: WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A 40% DIFFERENCE IN PRICE HERE.
I'm all for supporting NAM vendors,but it's a two way street:I have to feel supported by them in order to do so.I'd kinda like to hear from Seven Enterprises .......Jock

 

My recommendation is to PM or email Mike at Seven Enterprises and ask to see if they could provide better pricing.

To address one of the points above:

This is a three-way street. Vendors being here is both a function of the membership and my efforts to get them to join the community. The membership is a function of the vendors being here and our efforts to make a community where people want to spend time and share information. The site is here, and has grown, because of vendors being here, the strong, active membership, and our efforts to continually improve the site. In my view you can't have all three things without the others.

As I mentioined earlier you can post a great find on the site anytime you find one. In this case the post, I believe without meaning to, made the vendor look like he was intenionally trying to deceive people. I don't believe this is the case and time should have been taken to PM Seven and ask if they could offer a better price given Amazon's pricing. Frankly it isn't often that there are products that are brought to this site that are also carried by Amazon, Walmart, Target, or other companies that have tremendous buying power.

Going forward I would like to request that if you don't see something you feel is quite right with a price, a product, or product claim please contact the vendor as they can often best address your concern. Next, if you don't feel that you are concern is resolved, use the Contact Us form to contact me. I will attempt to see if there is a way help resolve your concern AND help the vendor improve his/her processes so that everyone benefits.

Mark