you're setting up a illogical straw man/false dichotomy here. each and every claim doesn't have to be addressed, only the ones that so totally and aggregiously fly in the face of basic science and engineering principles that an auto industry trained engineer isn't required to debunk them. e.g.: do you really believe the M7 claim to a 24 ft-lb torque increase from an air filter is valid? just because they ran it on the dyno and their own guy said, "well,the techs doubted it but we have several runs, so i guess it's really true." this flies in the face of basic logical reasoning as well as engineering proper test principles. this grates on people who are commited to real engineering and to logic, hence the continuing outcry against stuff like this.


mark, you can't be serious with this statement. M7 has done pretty much the same thing over and over since the very first M7 product / first bloodbath on NAM i can remember: the infamous M7 plasma booster. i remained civil in that and repeatedly asked for the published engineering test data that showed that a spark with higher voltage than necessary to jump the plug gap did anything for combustion. NO ANSWER, not ever, none.

this is another logical error discovered by the greeks: ad populum. such a poll doesn't determine whether the claims are false or not, and hence, whether the few making the complaints are justified in doing so or not.

before the first M7 plasma booster product hype, NAM was quite civilized, probably want you'd like to get back to. if the moderators here aren't willing to or are unable to make technical judgements about outlandish vendor claims, and slap down those posters who can, then this mess will continue. or this site will end up purging anybody who disagrees with M7 and will become a wasteland of "what color should i get" trivia and vendor hype.

 

Ok, why in the world would you think moderators should be making technical judgements? I'm sure they have lifes beyond NAM. Do you think have time to read every data sheet, dyno graph, and sales literature for every product that every vendor sells? Get real. And how long do you think M7 would be around if the products they sell all sucked? I think they are doing quite well. And yes you are correct, they, as in anybody, are justified in complaning if they like, but lying, slandering, and attacking should not be allowed.

 

Is not the membership here already the review board? If a vendor presents a product and members buy them, if they do not live up to the hype, the customer will share this with the rest of the community. To many bad reviews and the vendor is out of business. Free market... I think that all NAM is asking is to be civil and honest in our comments and not to go on a witch hunt. If a said vendor crosses the lines of honesty then they should be banned. Otherwise you could end up with some sort of process that vendors have to submit new products for approval before being presented here. My guess is that it would not be very long before there were no vendors on NAM.

 

I'm the OP, you don't like it, put me on your ignore list or go somewhere else.

 

+1

 

You ever hear of PT Barnum?

 

 

I guess not, clue me in?

 

First I agree with you that a 24ft-lb torque increase seems fishy. If I was in the market for an intake I would store this little tidbit away and would ask for verification or would wait for a third party test if I was REALLY interested in purchasing it. I would also continue looking at other products and would ultimately make my own decision on the pros/cons of all the products I've looked at based on technical data, looks, build quality, vendor reputation, input from friends, cost, etc. Its not just numbers that always drive my decisions.

So here's the white elephant in the room...is the goal to get M7 to improve or to get booted off the site?

If you really want M7 to improve why is everyone talking to me? Do you think I've got some magical ability to get vendors to change their business practices or is it because it takes more work to provide a good written letter posted to the site that explains the issues you have seen and how they should be changed? I've yet to see anything resembling a letter trying to pull all this together and make a cohesive constructive argument.

If you want M7 removed from the site why are you making the decisions for people that appear to like M7 and their products? Either you acting as the expert for what people really want or are asking Internet Brands to make the decision for members by forcing M7 from the site. Again, other than complaints about marketing and claims, I have yet to see a comprehensive argument posted to the site as to why they should be removed. Even if this argument was presented wouldn't you also feel it to be fair that M7 be given the opportunity to step up in regard to the criticisms?

Mark

 

 

Can we please check this type of comment at the door? I'm trying to get to the bottom of what the issues are and try to find a way that everyone can coexist with whatever their interest is. This doesn't help get that done.

 

thank you

 

I think that a Vendor that advertises on NAM should not be allowed to discredit or disclaim another vendor. Nor should they be allowed to pop in as a side bar to promote there products in anothers vendors thread. Rude!
I do not feel that moderaters should do an assessment of products unless they are willing to go to the trouble and expense to duplicate the condition of the product claims. There conclusions with out this would be yet another personal opinion.
If you ever saw the claims in J C Whitney, Summit racing, Jegs to name a few then you would realize that flambouyant claims is an after market industry standard. Sad but true. *And if there was any one part that was more fantastic then others it would be published a bit more then on a forum.

I do believe that a constant pounding for data from vendors is not reasonable. Its not to say that just because they will not or do not have imperical data that there product does not performed as claimed. In advertising there always is to some degree of exagerations. There has not been anything yet for a MINI that has not already been tried over the years on countless other cars. The one exception may be the tunes for Minis. Which the *vendors that offer them are constanly learning new ways for improvements.

I do believe that badgering a vendor from anyone is just wrong. If a question is ignored or just not answered it should be let go. It will be seen and read by others and they will make there own assessment. These are things the moderators should be looking for and to give private warnings to the offenders.

In reality not even half the members of NAM really get into performance parts on their mini. And fewer yet in the extreme parts modding.

 

This is good to see, discussion. Although it may take a while, or never, to reach a point were everyone agrees, which would be real boring, keeping out knee jerk reactions, and flippant remarks does help with sorting through the issues.

I do understand the main issue/players going on here, I would just like to point out that not all members are into hard core mods, this does not make them any less enthused about their MINI, or the community. Take the hard core detailers, they spend large sums of money on products and tools, not to mentions long hard hours keeping their MINIs looking better than new, and some of these MINIs have high mileage and are driven daily.

NAM is a community, and it takes a population with all kinds of interest, and levels of commitment to make up any community. So, like those folks who could care less about dyno specs, hard core mods and just ignore those areas of the site, if the orientation of your key fob or how others like theirs doesn't hold any interest for you, ignore those threads.

Some have said it's just a car, well that may be true, but NAM is more than that, it is a group of people brought together with like minded (more or less) interest in that car. So as I see it, the main issue here is not that we don't discuss all and every aspect of the car, and the interests of the members, but how we carry out those discussions.


Mark

 

And this is why I keep coming back.


The key word is discuss

 

I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of the situtation. If you are so worried about people posting their products in threads... WHY DON'T YOU PAY VENDOR FEES THEN?

Don't compare JC Whitney or anything else to NAM, this about improving our site that we pay fees to, not some mail order catalog. Posting crap about me under different alias's is.... well just rude too

 

Mark,
if you truly understood the players and the sitution we wouldn't have this thread going on for pages now. I read this thread in utter disbelief but hey it's like road kill. You just have to stop to take a good look at the carnage.

btw... happy fathers day to all.... off soon to the dyno to set some records

 

I, lotsie, have no control over the players involved. My only involvement is to try and help keep things civil.

As to the happy fathers day, ditto from me to

Mark

 

I would like to believe you are smart enough to realize that the "mail order catalogs" get there product and the advertisement information from very well known long time established performance companies. Or are you saying that they are full of crap?

 

so what you are saying is you believe what you read
brilliant

 

what ever....... your attitude is kinda what is being talked about here




https://www.northamericanmotoring.com....php?f=63&a=48

 

that makes about as much sense as the PM you sent me

 

The vendor guidelines (which I believe were posted publicly before) stipulate that a vendor can not post in a thread started by another vendor without permission. So if you do see that happening you can easily report that post as it violates the TOS to which the vendors agreed.

 

So why is RMW b& now?