As asinine as it sounds, it is.

The idea here is to solve the animosity between forum members spurned on by vendor debate. At least the Cheap Viagra ads are something we can all poke fun at...

Riddle me this.

On this utopia site, how do those that create the product inform the general membership of their latest and greatest products?

Keep in mind that sites such as this concentrate a large user community for the manufacturers. How do you keep it fair.

osmosis?

They don't. And if they do, they do so only after ensuring that the claims that they will make are verifiable, and substantiated, lest they be laughed off the forums.

And let's be real about this. We all know what's available for our cars, and from whom. That's what makes us enthusiasts. And there will always be hardcore enthusiasts around forums to fill in the casual folks. Vendors are not required.

the old guard knows. n00bs do not. I was a n00b once. true story as hard as it is to believe.

The "old guard" is failing to serve the community.

If that's the choice, then so be it. But don't whine about it when your members take matters into their own hands.

Want to alienate those of us who would call a vendor out? Pretty soon, you'll have no one left to market to. You can only sell a person so many "Actual Size" stickers.

Then you still have the same problems. Enthusiast A likes the stuff Vendor 1 creates so trumpets their horn. A group rallies around Ent A cause they think he's got *IT*. But Ent B uses stuff from V 1 and thinks its crap and says so. War ensues.

Thats a simple version but thats what we see here now.

No matter how a site this size is run a group is not going to like it. Solve it your way and people will complain about fake Viagra ad's. Some rich patron decides he/she will fund this to the same level or revenue generation now with a generous increase every year. In a group this size someone will complain.

in case you didn't notice...I'm just playing devil's advocate with you. My vendor-calling-out skills are finely honed

my forum experience is on less 'polite' forums where it's normal for anybody and everybody to point and stare when anybody makes incredulous claims (members and vendors). with all things, there should be a balance of this and respectful discourse

Vendor A can get the crap kicked out of them and no one steps in, vendor B seems untouchable.

Explain?

I'm not going to dispute this at all. You can't please everyone all the time. But the simple fact remains that in my "utopia", you're seeking to please all of your members. This is MUCH better than trying to please your sponsors, and to hell with the members.

I know that, D. Not trying to give you grief, just providing an honest response to your devil

Vendor A clearly spent more time working on their hyperbole and less on R&D and MOST IMPORTANTLY, proofreading. Who else would tout the superior performance of an ultralight titanium 5.6oz $1500 s/c pulley on the same page as their 5.4oz $149 aluminum s/c pulley?

The more important question to be asked here is who would allow such idiocy to permeate the community that is supposed to be in the interest of the owners it was created for?

More over, who would then side with the vendors when the community revolts?

slippery slope man......

ebay doesn't vet the quality of the products listed nor their efficacy. they only care if the check is made of rubber when it comes time for the sellers to pay. it doesn't make ebay evil or wrong, just a conduit for bringing sellers and buyers together

There is calling a vendor out and there is ******* them with every step they make. It's gotten to the point here with certain people and certain vendors that no matter what the vendor says it is questioned and not in a civil manner.

It's one thing to not agree and ask for more info. Even when the vendor does not provide that info do the same 15-20 people need to keep asking and getting snarkier by the post. Don't you think after a few posts asking for promised info is plenty. Let it rest, come back in a week, ask again. And again a week later.

You don't see people beating on RMW for data when he says data coming soon. Thats cause usually it is, there is a history of the data coming out from that Vendor. M7 says the same thing and usually doesn't show that data. And when they did in the AGS thread it was so far off what two other vendors had shown it was questioned. Fine, that should be the way it works. But we shouldn't have the same 15-20 people start beating on the vendor. It's pretty darn obvious that getting real data from them is just not going to happen. While the vendor may cry they are damned if they do and damned if they don't they are wrong too. Show that the data was not wrong when questioned.

Then mix in the personal issues between people and we have a real mess.

Didn't we have this a few months back and almost to a T everyone said lay back on the moderation. We did. How were we rewarded for doing what was asked. By a small contingent that is not representative of the masses dancing in the streets and breaking windows. Ok, time for the riot police.

Did some of the riot police bang a few to many heads too hard with glee. Well yeah. So now what. Time to find a middle ground where there can be some balance. I'm not idealistic enough that we will have a big group hug. There are some PITA vendors and some PITA members. They all need to be watched and dealt with. The trick is finding the right moderators to keep the right balance.

Why not become part of the solution. Got gripes, think you have a better way, help run the site.

Again, Nate. Valid points all around.

What's the common issue here? The vendors.

One vendor is trusted. The other, is not, and pays the price. This is why you should value ethics and honesty in your business. This is why you should respect your customers. When you don't, this is the price that you pay.

Note the vendors that do, don't have these issues. People don't give Jan crap because he treats people well, delivers a great product, and doesn't run his mouth. Aaron Cornaby doesn't have these problems either, because he and his wife are great people.

The bottom line is that the automotive aftermarket industry is a nasty, nasty business. When you allow people from that industry to do and say as they please, to hell with the members, you end up where we are now.

I think you are exactly right with one detail to be addressed. When the vendor does not provide data, fine. But when a noob asks a question, and the troops rally and say "there's no data, the part is questionable", other members come in and the war develops. There needs to be the ability to call vendors out, politely, as much as needed if the claims go unproven(Otherwise, don't make the claims in the first place). Both sides need to calm down, but the threads must remain open if they can be civil.
If their crap don't work, let them fall the way of Super Uber. This goes for everyone, not just a couple of vendors.

truer words were never spoken

I bust my hump to provide the best service I can and take great pride in creating all of my products. I have great help from the people I do work with and it sickens me to see people out there saying bad things about them that just aren't true to cover their deficiencies in products.

Gnatster: "But we shouldn't have the same 15-20 people start beating on the vendor."

Why not? If they are the only ones who are willing to keep the BS "watch" let it be. I keep hearing the "say it twice and move on". Does the vendor also move on? If they continue to peddle their wares then the BS flag needs to keep waving also.

Instead of cuddling the vendor, let them stand and defend themselves. They will either change their practices, or wither away and fall by the wayside like a useless appendage with someone more worthy to take their place. Nobody is crying over P/U being gone. Nobody misses some of the other less reputable vendors. Some vendors moved on and are doing just fine on their own without the NAM behemoth. Just my $.50

DING DING DING>.......

bad business practices will ONLY be changed when they are forced to.... I welcome this with open arms

why am I the only vendor posting in here?

As much as it may pain me to encourage him, he's spot on here.

I too, find this funny.

I find it even more amusing that we have a vendor repeatedly agreeing with our assessments of the problem, but Mark is nowhere to be found. Not like it matters anyway, this place is owned by a corporation now. Know what that means?

Not a damn thing will ever change.

Don't encouage him TOO much, he may go off the meds and go NUTS again.

IMHO there is a huge difference between pressing a vendor for legitimate data & sitting "offsite" & openly plotting attacks so that a group can all come in pounce on & disrupt a thread with the sole purpose of getting that thread closed then go back "offsite" & compare notes & high five each other about how you f'd with NAM for the day. If I hated NAM as much as some do I would find better things to do with my time.

Seriously, take up knitting or something

Let me go NUTs and wave the BS flag right here:

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=143486

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...d.php?t=143023

Do we really need TWO threads about the same part and THE SAME install on the same car? Is this not shilling? Just a little bit?

Ok, again. Not to endorse this kind of behaviour, but clearly the vendor did something to deserve this type of thing.

Notice you don't see anyone doing this to reputable, honest, hard working vendors. I've not yet seen the "OutMotoring.com sucks!" thread.

Remove the vendors, remove the problem.