Legals issues for MCO, businesses with MINI in their names,
#26
08-04-2003, 12:50 PM
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>Before you sign away your website, check with an intellectual property attorney. There may be issues that you or BMW have overlooked, and an additional kilo of grey matter on your side could be cheap insurance.
>>As for BMW's trademark fixation, well, one needs only look as far as the Carrol Shelby fiascos of the past and present to see what happens when you don't aggressively pursue trademark copyrights. Sorry that they want to pick on MCO.
This has been an issue ongoing since February and I retained an IP attorney several months ago ($$$ per hour). We have gone over nearly every possible angle in dealing with them. It really comes down to "can I accept the financial burden of fighting this out against a company with nearly unlimited resources?" type of question. Even if I had money to fight this (I work on the site full time and support my family with it) I would likely get to the point where I would get bitter about the whole affair...given the issue to date I've worked very hard not to let this happen.
While I admit that their trademarks have been diluted in the market (especially for the word Mini since its been in the market for more than 40 years) they appear to be attempting to build enforcement of the mark again. In fact, I found that the word mark "MINI" had only been submitted for opposition in March of 2003. This means that if no one opposes it will stand. I would certain hope, given the number of businesses that formed well before this date, that we could band together enough support to keep this in the public domain.
Mark
>>As for BMW's trademark fixation, well, one needs only look as far as the Carrol Shelby fiascos of the past and present to see what happens when you don't aggressively pursue trademark copyrights. Sorry that they want to pick on MCO.
This has been an issue ongoing since February and I retained an IP attorney several months ago ($$$ per hour). We have gone over nearly every possible angle in dealing with them. It really comes down to "can I accept the financial burden of fighting this out against a company with nearly unlimited resources?" type of question. Even if I had money to fight this (I work on the site full time and support my family with it) I would likely get to the point where I would get bitter about the whole affair...given the issue to date I've worked very hard not to let this happen.
While I admit that their trademarks have been diluted in the market (especially for the word Mini since its been in the market for more than 40 years) they appear to be attempting to build enforcement of the mark again. In fact, I found that the word mark "MINI" had only been submitted for opposition in March of 2003. This means that if no one opposes it will stand. I would certain hope, given the number of businesses that formed well before this date, that we could band together enough support to keep this in the public domain.
Mark
#27
08-04-2003, 12:56 PM
1st Gear
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Florida
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not sure about other MINI owners out there but this site and the information it has provided me since I first grew interested in MINI, I'm only 20 so I knew little of the old one sans the name, is very much a driving force behind my decision to buy one. Frankly without having such easy access to everything from aftermarket parts suppliers, many of whom I've purchased from in anticipation of my nov delivery, to the unending support of the whole community here whenever someone has a technical problem that BMWNA/MINIUSA has failed to resolve, I'd have lost interest in the car long ago. There are many other cars available with strong fan followings where it would be easier for someone like me with only minor experience fixing cars to find help and advice regarding upgrades or even basic care and maintenance. I'm not really surprised and do understand their concern over protecting their name, however, a site like this that generates so much positive publicity and fosters such a strong sense of community should not be just tossed aside. I'll be e-mailing MINIUSA with others and will certainly support you in your fight to resolve this issue. Best of luck and I'm sure the whole community will stand behind you.
#28
08-04-2003, 12:56 PM
my e-mail to MINIUSA
Subject: bully tactics
Ref:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...98&start=0
How is it that a company who's marketing has been so tactful and creative
has now turned against the #1 example of MINI enthusiasm in North America?
Who made the decision that instead of cultivating the excitement for the
MINI COOPER that it was time step in and act against those who were
promoting MINI for you though their efforts?
It stuns me to see MINIUSA/BMWUSA turning against their enthusiasts after
encouraging them. What gives?
I sincerely hope that some MINI owner wins the races required to get the
contingency money from MINIUSA and then turns around and donates it to
defray the costs Mark Ferguson has encountered due to the bully tactics of
your legal team.
MINIUSA has grossly underestimated the impact of turning against their
owners.
Happy Monday to yeah!
Dave Bunting
VIN: TD51044
Subject: bully tactics
Ref:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...98&start=0
How is it that a company who's marketing has been so tactful and creative
has now turned against the #1 example of MINI enthusiasm in North America?
Who made the decision that instead of cultivating the excitement for the
MINI COOPER that it was time step in and act against those who were
promoting MINI for you though their efforts?
It stuns me to see MINIUSA/BMWUSA turning against their enthusiasts after
encouraging them. What gives?
I sincerely hope that some MINI owner wins the races required to get the
contingency money from MINIUSA and then turns around and donates it to
defray the costs Mark Ferguson has encountered due to the bully tactics of
your legal team.
MINIUSA has grossly underestimated the impact of turning against their
owners.
Happy Monday to yeah!
Dave Bunting
VIN: TD51044
_________________
PM Dave
This life is more than just a read through.
#29
08-04-2003, 12:59 PM
2nd Gear
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: The beautiful central coast of California
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is absolutely assinine. This site has helped the MINI and the people that own them. What is wrong with these people. 
Mark, I cannot believe you have kept this under wraps as long as you have. No wonder you are stressed. If there is anything that I can assist you with, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Also, and I think I speak for others on the site, that if this becomes any more of a financial burden for you I think you should consider asking us members to help out. I for one would assist. Anybody else listening. COME ON, chime in, let's help!!!!
One more thing. As asked earlier is there a conflict with "cooper" in the name?
Regards, Woody
Mark, I cannot believe you have kept this under wraps as long as you have. No wonder you are stressed. If there is anything that I can assist you with, please do not hesitate to contact me.
Also, and I think I speak for others on the site, that if this becomes any more of a financial burden for you I think you should consider asking us members to help out. I for one would assist. Anybody else listening. COME ON, chime in, let's help!!!!
One more thing. As asked earlier is there a conflict with "cooper" in the name?
Regards, Woody
#30
08-04-2003, 01:07 PM
#31
08-04-2003, 01:11 PM
As a pressure relief, and to know that you are not alone in this insane endeavour of being hounded by the big dogs, may I suggest a quick visit to this UK site.
http://www.marketeering.net/IHateTheBMWMINI/index.shtml
A little humor is needed at times stress.
http://www.marketeering.net/IHateTheBMWMINI/index.shtml
A little humor is needed at times stress.
#33
08-04-2003, 01:16 PM
4th Gear
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mark,
I called the 1800-Ask-Mini number today and filed a "concern" about this with them. After reading this, I was outraged that they are trying to "bite the hands that feed them". Why would an organization want to hurt a group of people who are their strongest supporters? I don't get this. Actually I do...you aren't on thier payrole and they have no authority to what you place on the site.
Anyways...best of luck. Let me know where I can send some donation to help defray your legal expenses.
Ryan
I called the 1800-Ask-Mini number today and filed a "concern" about this with them. After reading this, I was outraged that they are trying to "bite the hands that feed them". Why would an organization want to hurt a group of people who are their strongest supporters? I don't get this. Actually I do...you aren't on thier payrole and they have no authority to what you place on the site.
Anyways...best of luck. Let me know where I can send some donation to help defray your legal expenses.
Ryan
#34
08-04-2003, 01:20 PM
Banned
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Plymouth, MN
Posts: 2,859
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>... the problem I have with that path is that I would NEVER be able to tell people what MCO stands for.
I worked on a project once called PEX the Phigs Extension to X
Well, phigs was a problem, so we just started telling everyone "PEX" doesn;t stand for anything.
So, I think MCO would work.
I worked on a project once called PEX the Phigs Extension to X
Well, phigs was a problem, so we just started telling everyone "PEX" doesn;t stand for anything.
So, I think MCO would work.
#35
08-04-2003, 01:20 PM
6th Gear
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: 14605
Posts: 1,649
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
... so , we've always known we are different - at least as far as automobiles are concerned - and now we get to be a secret society! ... as underworld car owners, the ideas about special waves to on-coming Motorists and secret handshakes at meets become instantly more relevant ...
... and do you realize that their stance means that any owner who tries to sell a can will not be able to call it a 'MINI' in the newspaper add? ... that would be unauthorized commercial usage ...
This site is obviously not like the "I Hate MINI" sites and BMW/MINI should be able to see the difference - but they have shown before that they were and are unprepared for the level of enthusiast support that this car can gererate on it's own ... so the reactionary responce is to shut everything down instead of looking at each on an individual basis - if MINIUSA were more pro-active about getting their 'Lounge' online, maybe sites like this wouldn't have been necessary to begin with, but the genie is out of the bottle and we are all used to coming here, and trying to force sites like this to hide behind unaffilliated names won't make us migrate to their (inferior) 'product' ...
To Mark's advantage, there are several businesses that have been in the 'Mini' business for years and as potential targets for MINIUSA copyright protectors, they all can apply pressure to help keep the "M" word available for general usage - it's only too bad that it has come to the point that they have to legally gang up on the bad guys ...
With membership at just under 9000, we represent a minority of the tens of thousands of units they've moved, but petitions and news releases can help to get valuable public opinion on the side of sanity - our side ...
Thanks Again, Mark, for setting all this up and for enduring to keep us all happy while fighting this stuff behind the scenes ... now it's our turn to fight the battle and let MINIUSA know what a nightmare this could become for them ...
... and do you realize that their stance means that any owner who tries to sell a can will not be able to call it a 'MINI' in the newspaper add? ... that would be unauthorized commercial usage ...
This site is obviously not like the "I Hate MINI" sites and BMW/MINI should be able to see the difference - but they have shown before that they were and are unprepared for the level of enthusiast support that this car can gererate on it's own ... so the reactionary responce is to shut everything down instead of looking at each on an individual basis - if MINIUSA were more pro-active about getting their 'Lounge' online, maybe sites like this wouldn't have been necessary to begin with, but the genie is out of the bottle and we are all used to coming here, and trying to force sites like this to hide behind unaffilliated names won't make us migrate to their (inferior) 'product' ...
To Mark's advantage, there are several businesses that have been in the 'Mini' business for years and as potential targets for MINIUSA copyright protectors, they all can apply pressure to help keep the "M" word available for general usage - it's only too bad that it has come to the point that they have to legally gang up on the bad guys ...
With membership at just under 9000, we represent a minority of the tens of thousands of units they've moved, but petitions and news releases can help to get valuable public opinion on the side of sanity - our side ...
Thanks Again, Mark, for setting all this up and for enduring to keep us all happy while fighting this stuff behind the scenes ... now it's our turn to fight the battle and let MINIUSA know what a nightmare this could become for them ...
#36
08-04-2003, 01:20 PM
:evil: :evil: 
Mark,
May I suggest membership dues? Would that help with your legal defense? Or at least, would you consider starting a legal defense fund?
I'm also a member of Roadfly, and paid $29 to be an "inner circle" member. Perhaps you could institute something similar?
I know I'd be more than happy to pay membership dues. Please think about it.
Cheers!
Clover
Mark,
May I suggest membership dues? Would that help with your legal defense? Or at least, would you consider starting a legal defense fund?
I'm also a member of Roadfly, and paid $29 to be an "inner circle" member. Perhaps you could institute something similar?
I know I'd be more than happy to pay membership dues. Please think about it.
Cheers!
Clover
#37
08-04-2003, 01:21 PM
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>>>MINI2 is British based and it is my understanding the MCO is being threatened by BMWUSA/MINIUSA, not MINI International.
>>
>>
>>Can the domain be transfered to a foriegn domain? .uk, .au etc.
I agree... Register it in the Philippines and keep the Domain as a .com
It is a sad situation...
Not only for Mark and MCO, but everyone here and not to forget... sites like MiniCooperParts.com, MiniMania, MiniMadness, MonsterMini, and the list goes on...
Even sites using some of the MiniUSA copyrighted art can be in some big trouble. Will we be seeing these sites dissappear? Will the small groups and organizations have to hide and drop all sponsors and adverts in fear of legal retribution?
I think it is an outrage.
Use of the Brand Name should be allowed when contributing to the overall community. Bringing Like minds together to forum about their common motoring interests...
If there were no MCO, would we have lesser Mini Clubs? Would there be a wide spread desire to know more? Would sales be less, without the worldwide Mini Community?
It's an outrage and I for one will sign that petition, whereever it may be!
>>
>>
>>Can the domain be transfered to a foriegn domain? .uk, .au etc.
I agree... Register it in the Philippines and keep the Domain as a .com
It is a sad situation...
Not only for Mark and MCO, but everyone here and not to forget... sites like MiniCooperParts.com, MiniMania, MiniMadness, MonsterMini, and the list goes on...
Even sites using some of the MiniUSA copyrighted art can be in some big trouble. Will we be seeing these sites dissappear? Will the small groups and organizations have to hide and drop all sponsors and adverts in fear of legal retribution?
I think it is an outrage.
Use of the Brand Name should be allowed when contributing to the overall community. Bringing Like minds together to forum about their common motoring interests...
If there were no MCO, would we have lesser Mini Clubs? Would there be a wide spread desire to know more? Would sales be less, without the worldwide Mini Community?
It's an outrage and I for one will sign that petition, whereever it may be!
#38
08-04-2003, 01:22 PM
4th Gear
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Austin, Texas
Posts: 324
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mark:
BTW, I have a contact with the Associated Press in Washington. I can give him a call if you would like. Contact me at swingkat75@yahoo.com
RH
BTW, I have a contact with the Associated Press in Washington. I can give him a call if you would like. Contact me at swingkat75@yahoo.com
RH
#39
08-04-2003, 01:23 PM
My letter to BMW/MINI:
To whom it may concern,
This protest is in response to the legal action taken against Minicooperonline.com by BMWNA/MINIUSA lawyers. As you can see from this thread on minicooperonline.com, many MINI owners are very upset about this litigation:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=14098
How can BMW/MINIUSA turn on the #1 example of MINI enthusiasm in the United States? Minicooperonline.com is the premier site for all MINI owners to trade information on everything MINI. I consult their site on a daily basis, and my buying decision was sealed by talking to MINI owners on the site! Minicooperonline.com has probably helped the sales of MINIs more than all the motoring advisors employed by MINI. The MINI is very much a grassroots car and you will be biting the hand that feeds you if you strike at the best grassroots site out there. The bully tactics being used by BMWNA/MINIUSA lawyers are unforgivable. As a MINI owner and proud supporter of Minicooperonline.com, I will do everything in my power to fight this senseless harassment. I hope that BMWNA/MINIUSA will realize how much bad press and owner backlash this will cause, and withdraw the legal action.
Please read the “Our Values” posted on MINIUSA.com and then reconsider your position. What you are doing to Minicooperonline.com goes against every value you claim to believe in.
Thanks for your time.
--
Aaron Geiger
Co-founder-St. Louis Mini Club
aaron@aarongeiger.com
http://www.aarongeiger.com
aaron@stlmini.com
http://www.stlmini.com
"LET'S MOTOR!"
To whom it may concern,
This protest is in response to the legal action taken against Minicooperonline.com by BMWNA/MINIUSA lawyers. As you can see from this thread on minicooperonline.com, many MINI owners are very upset about this litigation:
https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...mp;topic=14098
How can BMW/MINIUSA turn on the #1 example of MINI enthusiasm in the United States? Minicooperonline.com is the premier site for all MINI owners to trade information on everything MINI. I consult their site on a daily basis, and my buying decision was sealed by talking to MINI owners on the site! Minicooperonline.com has probably helped the sales of MINIs more than all the motoring advisors employed by MINI. The MINI is very much a grassroots car and you will be biting the hand that feeds you if you strike at the best grassroots site out there. The bully tactics being used by BMWNA/MINIUSA lawyers are unforgivable. As a MINI owner and proud supporter of Minicooperonline.com, I will do everything in my power to fight this senseless harassment. I hope that BMWNA/MINIUSA will realize how much bad press and owner backlash this will cause, and withdraw the legal action.
Please read the “Our Values” posted on MINIUSA.com and then reconsider your position. What you are doing to Minicooperonline.com goes against every value you claim to believe in.
Thanks for your time.
--
Aaron Geiger
Co-founder-St. Louis Mini Club
aaron@aarongeiger.com
http://www.aarongeiger.com
aaron@stlmini.com
http://www.stlmini.com
"LET'S MOTOR!"
#40
08-04-2003, 01:24 PM
3rd Gear
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Is it just me with my conspiracy theory or hasn't MCO, by banding us all together to be heard as one voice in our concerns to BMW/MINI been a thorn in their side? May this not be one way to disband us?
I say, NAY! We shall not disband!
Mark, We're right behind you brother. Tell us what to do.
I say, NAY! We shall not disband!
Mark, We're right behind you brother. Tell us what to do.
#41
08-04-2003, 01:24 PM
Mark, this BMW imbroglio is a bummer, and we appreciate what you are going through, and what you've done for us MINI enthusiasts at MCO.
Not to sound defeatist, but it's hard to fight the deep pockets and clout of the BMW organization, so let's all of us try and come up with some domain name that can retain some semblance of this great car which we all drive, and not run afoul of those big bullies.
I will work hard to come up with some ideas in the next few days. Good luck to you.
Not to sound defeatist, but it's hard to fight the deep pockets and clout of the BMW organization, so let's all of us try and come up with some domain name that can retain some semblance of this great car which we all drive, and not run afoul of those big bullies.
I will work hard to come up with some ideas in the next few days. Good luck to you.
#42
08-04-2003, 01:26 PM
Banned
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 1,805
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>Mark - I'm glad you've decided to make this issue public. MINIUSA has a history of responding well to public pressure and we can only hope they will do so in this case as well.
>>
>>I'm posting a story regarding this on my website as we speak.
Good Job! I also find it bemusing that it tops over the 7.6 Percent Jump in July Sales for MINIUSA headline. Mini Has minimal "niche" advertising, and sales increase... could that be from "outside" efforts (MCO and the Like), assisting the potential buyer in his decision?
And as a side note suggestion....
Mark, submit a form letter with all of our email addresses as the sendee's.
And Advertisers, Stand up now, if there were a time to show support, it should be now. Compile Stat/Slaes and Hit Lists, to prove how valuable this site is and can continue to be, not only to your business, but to MINI themselves. Even MINI OF THE HAMPTONS is an Advertiser here... Let it Be Known!
>>
>>I'm posting a story regarding this on my website as we speak.
Good Job! I also find it bemusing that it tops over the 7.6 Percent Jump in July Sales for MINIUSA headline. Mini Has minimal "niche" advertising, and sales increase... could that be from "outside" efforts (MCO and the Like), assisting the potential buyer in his decision?
And as a side note suggestion....
Mark, submit a form letter with all of our email addresses as the sendee's.
And Advertisers, Stand up now, if there were a time to show support, it should be now. Compile Stat/Slaes and Hit Lists, to prove how valuable this site is and can continue to be, not only to your business, but to MINI themselves. Even MINI OF THE HAMPTONS is an Advertiser here... Let it Be Known!
#43
08-04-2003, 01:27 PM
3rd Gear
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Southern California
Posts: 254
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#44
08-04-2003, 01:30 PM
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
>>Mark, have you considered putting out a press release regarding this? A little bit of bad press and BMW may not feel the need to persue it...
I don't really have any contacts in the press that I could use as a conduit for this information. If anyone does please feel free to pass the information from this thread along to them. They can also contact me at mferguson@northamericanmotoring.com.
Thanks for helping spread the word!
Mark
I don't really have any contacts in the press that I could use as a conduit for this information. If anyone does please feel free to pass the information from this thread along to them. They can also contact me at mferguson@northamericanmotoring.com.
Thanks for helping spread the word!
Mark
#45
08-04-2003, 01:31 PM
Mark,
I'm going back to F150online.com. At least American auto makers know who butters their bread. But seriously, I like the idea of using MCO.com. This site has a well established following and is not in danger of dying due to a name change. I as well will voice my opinion to MINIUSA, but if they do not relent you have my full support to do what you think is best for the site, without going broke doing it. Thank you for all the work you have done to date and for what you will do in the future.
I'm going back to F150online.com. At least American auto makers know who butters their bread. But seriously, I like the idea of using MCO.com. This site has a well established following and is not in danger of dying due to a name change. I as well will voice my opinion to MINIUSA, but if they do not relent you have my full support to do what you think is best for the site, without going broke doing it. Thank you for all the work you have done to date and for what you will do in the future.
#46
08-04-2003, 01:35 PM
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Colorado
Posts: 3,070
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Aaron,
I believe Dave has supplied contacts into MINI through customer service. If you want to contact them I would recommend going that route. I don't think it would help the issue to expose Jack's email here. That said I think that letter writing would be a better tact to take. Unfortunately I don't have his mailing address. If anyone does have it please post.
If you do contact your local dealer, MINIUSA, or write a letter PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do it constructively. A general rant (although I would like to have one) won't have nearly the impact as a calm, focused letter expressing your thoughts on the matter at hand.
Thanks!
Mark
>>Mark,
>> If you could provide us with an e-mail or snail-mail address for Jack Pitney or another MINIUSA contact, we could all send our support to MINI USA, letting them know that they are killing grassroots support for the car and brand. We have stlmini.com, and I hope that they don't come after our tiny site. MCO is such an essential part of the community; It can't be taken away because of overdone litigation.
>>
>>Let us know where to send our support and we'll do it!
>>
>>Long live minicooperonline.com!
>>
>>Aaron Geiger
I believe Dave has supplied contacts into MINI through customer service. If you want to contact them I would recommend going that route. I don't think it would help the issue to expose Jack's email here. That said I think that letter writing would be a better tact to take. Unfortunately I don't have his mailing address. If anyone does have it please post.
If you do contact your local dealer, MINIUSA, or write a letter PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE do it constructively. A general rant (although I would like to have one) won't have nearly the impact as a calm, focused letter expressing your thoughts on the matter at hand.
Thanks!
Mark
>>Mark,
>> If you could provide us with an e-mail or snail-mail address for Jack Pitney or another MINIUSA contact, we could all send our support to MINI USA, letting them know that they are killing grassroots support for the car and brand. We have stlmini.com, and I hope that they don't come after our tiny site. MCO is such an essential part of the community; It can't be taken away because of overdone litigation.
>>
>>Let us know where to send our support and we'll do it!
>>
>>Long live minicooperonline.com!
>>
>>Aaron Geiger
#47
08-04-2003, 01:35 PM
5th Gear
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Naw-folk, VA
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
MCO.com .org .net etc.. are all taken already everyone.
What about a play on "The independent North American community of MINI owners and enthusiasts.... NACMO? ugg.. it doesn't exactly roll off the tounge!
I second the idea of moving the domain overseas... play the legal shell game..
Reprehensible BMW/MINI... completely reprehensible.
What about a play on "The independent North American community of MINI owners and enthusiasts.... NACMO? ugg.. it doesn't exactly roll off the tounge!
I second the idea of moving the domain overseas... play the legal shell game..
Reprehensible BMW/MINI... completely reprehensible.
#49
08-04-2003, 01:40 PM
5th Gear
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Naw-folk, VA
Posts: 694
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
