On this same topic, can you only rate and comment on the vendors listed there already, or can you add them? Cause I have good things to say about Dan at Grassroots Garage, and I can't see where to post them....

 

Would you explain in more detail what this means and give some examples? I don't understand the background to this original post.

Is it that some people don't have respect for some others, including some vendors? But is "universal respect" a valid goal? This isn't possible on NAM or in the larger world because some people just don't deserve respect. Am I supposed to "respect" a mugger or a tyrant out rob or kill me? Some here feel that certain vendors have slung so much hype and lies at a mostly non-technical audience that they don't deserve respect.

For instance, there's an ongoing thread "Palo Uber Sucks." Is this now an acceptable level of respect on NAM?

 

Delurking alert!

Thanks much bamatt, for my new word for the day, and for your sparks of levity in this otherwise rather heavy thread. I'm "lurking" because I know the experienced posters are smart, well-intentioned folk who genuinely want to make NAM the best it can be, and I can learn from their sage perspective.

I'd contribute at the same level of cerebral intensity, but it's starting to look a lot like my undergraduate Philosophy 201 class (I got a D ).

From the 20,000 foot view, all that is right with NAM seems to far exceed any of the wrongs.

So moderators and doer-wells, take a pause to pat yourselves on the back, and motor on, dudes!

 

well, your examples show an extreme comparison, respecting a mugger or tyrant is different, and apples to oranges, those examples are not characteristic of NAM...so not a fare assumption. Let's be realistic, and not get so caught up in semantics.

I think the respect thing comes from the schools of thought, performance mods v. aesthetic mods, and having respect for individual taste, R56 v. 1st generation R50 and R53, etc. Also respect for someones post and not finger pointing so much. There are those that get so worked up over someone that post something that is not EXACTLY within the guidelines. Like the market place, those that will muck up a thread with posting the rules, but not having any intent of buying that item. Jumping in like that to me is annoying and disrespectful. The level of respect from member to vendor, and vendor to member has also been going down hill. Those are the issues, and the root to the creation of this thread. It started in the moderation forum, I raised the issue that not everything is wonderful here, and there are some practices that need to be challenged. I challenged the other mods to start a thread to find out what some issues were, so we can fix them, instead of leaving well enough alone and NOT improving. We need to hear from the members to make change, not just assume what you all want. It is your site, you have a right to have your voice heard and affect change.

As far as that PU Sucks thread, well, people are fed up with the vendor, and yes, they have a right to be heard....and yes, they can have some fun while complaining. I personally don't think it is all that bad. Can you honestly say that you have never said that anything "sucks"?. If so, then I can understand how that type of posting will bother you. I don't feel the thread is unacceptable, and it is ok to have a ***** session every now and then, IMHO.

 

I like it just the way it is ! Keep it rated PG my kids are in the room when I'm on the site .Seems like when things get crazy the moderator's step in at the right time .Keep the politics out , I'm very political but thats not what I look for here.The frat boy thing gets a little carried away sometimes but thats my cross to bear ,I've never liked that stuff .My vote for NAM -Dont change a thing !Four more years !

 

What would happen if say the thread read M7 sucks? I am not trying to bait, but I know that is the white elephant in the room. Would the mods think it is so funny and "not all that bad". I am just expressing what people don't have the guts to say. I don't have any issues with M7, but I know many people who do. I think that is the biggest complaint by most people that I know, is that there is a perceived vendor favortism and that results in moderation favortism. Again, just pointing out the white elephant in the room.

 

I find NAM to be a community not just a website. I am a member of a few boards for other interests & I would never tell those people my real name or ever have the desire to meet them face to face. I have done both around here. Sorry but to many (dare I say most?) NAM is more than just a "website"

 

There is one...we've had a review system on the site for 2+ years. I've been trying to give it extra visibility of late so that people would start using it. Look in the Main Menu under "Reviews".

Mark

 

I still don't see an easy way to add a vendor, or a product review. Additionally, how unbiased and independent can a review be if it has to be approved by NAM management, which collects advertising revenue from the vendors being reviewed?

 

As you all can tell, I am a newbie on this forum. I have been treated kindly even when I have asked questions that I am sure have been asked before. I am normally a forum user and so don't know all the etiquette. I am sorry to hear that not everyone is enjoying the kindness and congeniality that I have experienced thus far.

 

OOps. I am NOT normally a forum user. See, I really do suck at this!

 

When someone is moderated is that permanent or just a set time when they have to have post approved. Just curious on how it works.

 

FWIW, your efforts worked on me. I finally woke up and noticed it about a week ago. Have actually contributed one vendor review.

Thanks.

 

Let me preface my post by first saying that, in general, I think NAM is pretty well-run. When I first started reading the site, the only other board I frequented was televisionwithoutpity.com. Now there's a site that is heavily moderated... honestly, over here feels like the Wild West compared to there. But every forum has its own dynamic, and that's cool.

That having been said, I've come to appreciate the way those boards are run. Imagine the traffic they receive and the amount of work it must take to keep the signal-to-noise ratio high. Though I've only been around since the start of the year, it seems to be that NAM might be hitting that critical mass where more moderation is required.

Personally, I'm appreciative of the thread- and post-merging. (There, Edge, some love your way. I don't think there's enough moderation on these boards. ) OCD? Maybe. Overmoderation? Again, compared to at least one other board, the mods on NAM are pretty tolerant of disorder. The tidying-up makes some information easier to find when they're all in one place. There are stickies in the main forums that highly recommend people try to see if a thread exists on a topic before starting a new topic, and I think it's a good policy. Yet, it seems they are ignored. How many separate threads do there need to be on what everyone named their MINIs? Or discussions on the pros and cons of getting a sunroof? How many threads are started in the wrong forum? I think keeping the clutter down can only help.

I can sympathize with the people who are tired of the "did you do a search?" knee-jerk responses to the questions newer members post. It doesn't make them feel welcome, and we should always strive to be welcoming. At the same time, posts are retained for a reason--this isn't like a live conversation where no memory is retained of what has been previously discussed. There was a time when people were expected to lurk for a few months before posting to a group, and people who didn't obviously do so (basically, people who didn't do the legwork to get to know the community beforehand) got flamed into oblivion. I'm not commenting on the merits of that particular practice, but the concept exemplified consideration for one another and it's easy to see how people can get frustrated (on both ends).

(--and others who have piped in on this)

Agreed--the search engine here kind of sucks. So I concur with, at least, trying to be helpful if someone asks a question that has already been answered or discussed by first answering their questions, then providing links to the old threads so that they can benefit from the previous discussions. But again, it behooves one to at least indicate that they tried a search, so at least it's apparent that they're being considerate. And yes, the consideration works both ways--being a noob doesn't give others license to treat one inconsiderately.

Looking at your post count--I'd hardly call you a lurker.

And it certainly wasn't helped by the 1st gen/2nd gen MINI debate (or is it better termed "R56 bashing"?). I read a post in the 2nd Gen forum (in the thread about R56s looking bloated) that asked why R53 owners felt the need to post in the R56 forum when the poster didn't feel the need to post in the 1st Gen forum. I think there was some missing text there--the poster didn't feel the need to post in the 1st Gen forum to bash the 1st gen MINIs--but going purely by what was posted, it contributes to a feeling (maybe it's just me) of unwelcomeness. (OK--I know that's not true since I spend every waking hour on NAM. )

I agree. I expect the moderators to help maintain civil discourse and do housekeeping (and of course participate in lively discussion) but they can't manage people's personalities. For everyone's part, they would be helped by taking a minute before posting in a heated discussion and considering if they really need to fan the flames.

Things really aren't that bad here. Just a few bad eggs scattered around.

 

Yes, I would, there are some definite issues with many of the vendors, and they are not exempt from these issues or concerns. The overall practice is not just a member issue, it is a moderator issue, admin issue, and a vendor issue. Everyone is involved. Period.

 

That's good to know if that is the case. I know you are a newer moderator and have said you are trying to bring about some changes. Kudos for your efforts. I believe this issue applys more to the "old guard" of moderators and administrators. If it does happen as you say, NAM can become a better place for it.

 

+1

How many of us have exchanged addresses and phone numbers for the Card Exchange and Membership Map as well as trading, buying and selling stuff.

With my work schedule it almost seems like I have more friends in this "community" than the community where I live.

 

+ another 1 on NAM being community.

I seem to recall this little event in some backwoods town that had some little road with a few turns in it, where for five years a couple of people that met on this here website got together and shared some drinks, ate some food and drove their little cars up and down the road. Nah, that aint community.

 

I heard that place was overrated & it was only an old wives tale

 

The search engine works fine. It's the people doing the searches that don't work. Searching is an art, there are so many ways to filter that one versed in the art of searching can narrow most subjects down to the relevant posts.

Asking people to use the search is fine, but toss them a bone too. Give them some idea of the arcane search terms used to find that needle in the haystack. Show them how to limit their search to a subforum or from a date range you know the subject will be in.

Now as to moderation on this site, I've seen this before on sites I've run. Mods get stale. They get bored, they have their own agendas which at first they don't know they have but in time it shows. New mods help to shake old ones up. Sometimes mods need to go and not be promoted to admins. Some mods here are doing the site a disservice with their heavy hand that they don't think is so heavy.

Forums such as these are living entities constantly in flux. The trick is to move the tide and not force the tide to bend to you.

While I loath to delve into the business end of forums there comes a time when a relationsship with a vendor must end. There are many reasons why, but in this case it's the vendor. No BS here, Palo Uber is not a vendor of the caliber NAM needs. Not all income is good income, this income comes with blood on your hands. While there are people that have success in dealing with this sham of a company there are multiples more that have had difficulties. Anyone can look at the multitude of threads and see the issues. There was a time when Mini Madness would speak up in defense of issues and try and make them better. I think we can all see that George and YakMini have stopped defending Palo Uber.

Thats part of the unseemly side of NAM. There are plenty of other little things that are going wrong that many people either don't see, don't care about or turn a blind eye towards.

Wake|MCS with his buy my wheels sig. Thats pretty darn ugly. What happens when we all start putting links to our for sale items?

I hate to bring this back up but Edge and his "readability" edits. Subject titles are fine, makes for a better look. But this multi-quote issue, com on, don't you have better things to do Edge or are you so enamored with having it look just so that the bigger fish are not bigger to you. Seeing the style in which people post helps as some insight to the person. We learned a lot for the kid that posted in all caps and make a race thing of it. From pimpedout97x's lack of capitalization, punctuation and general lack of care we can see that this monstrosity he is building ios going to be fraught with issues. When you go and fix any of this stuff, including multi-quote we lose a possible window into this persons psyche.

This is never going to be a touchy feely ohh look at my cute Mini forum. It may have been for the first week after it was started but now it has reached that mass, where as I've stated before, it is a microcosm of the population as a whole.

And thats the way I see it on this day.

 

Amen... universal respect is a pipe dream.

I'm way too tired to get into everything that could use improvement on NAM, but suffice to say there's quite a bite.

This site is most certainly over moderated, and there is quite a bit of favoritism and selective enforcement.

Edge loves throwing out the "Report Post" feature, but nobody wants to be labeled as a rat, and i'm sure he could free up plenty of time by eliminating the "Merge Threads" crap.

On that note, if someone insults me, I deal with it on my own. I don't need a moderator to help me be an adult, and work out an issue, conflict resolution is an important skill to have in life. Sugar coating everything doesn't really help people develop that necessary skill.

I've seen members go into threads, completely derail them, call a vendors efforts worthless, anyone who buys their products a moron, basically do everything BUT call that person a pile of ****, and nothing happens. But GOD forbid someone call that person a bad name and tell them to leave an otherwise constructive thread .

Recently I was given a "Strike" for standing up for a vendor who I work closely with (Unfortunately I did so by resorting to a personal attack, which wasn't right, but calling being called name isn't the end of the world, it's part of life, deal with it and move on. In my opinion the person deserved it, disrespect is going to be met with more disrespect).

The idea of universal respect is wonderful, but life isn't all flowers and love. There are going to be disagreements, and when someone shows no respect, in my book, they get none. I don't care what the site guidelines say, if someone insults me or a friend, they've lost all my respect.

I also agree with others regarding the "Strike" system being ineffective. I've been building websites for 8 years, and i've been working in IT for at least 6. If I REALLY wanted to post on NAM after being banned, you don't think I could? It's not hard to change your IP address, or use a proxy.

Sometimes posting on NAM feels like being back in middle school. You always have big brother lurking overhead to slap you on the wrist if you do something naughty .

I like a little conflict every once in a while, people should be free to speak their mind. Having threads closed down and people banned from the site because they voice their opinion is a bit ridiculous, if it gets rowdy, so what. People CHOOSE to come here, they CHOOSE to post in a thread, and they CHOOSE to read it. If reading a bad word is such an egregious act, leave!

Let people speak their minds, stop trolling around the forums like a robot, quoting site guidelines and issuing "strikes" in every direction.

My thoughts are scattered, but after 10 hours of meetings i'm in no condition to organize them, so I apologize.

 

 

Kudos to that brother...

 

Seems that the last time this forum saw this many posts in a thread was when someone asked if NAM was getting boring

Mark

 

Well there was this one time in band camp where someone claimed that the country of origin of their clarinet was not what it was.