My personal opinion and observations.

With change comes change and not always for the best. Demographics both financially and socially contribute to differences that some might not understand, care about or agree with.

We have clique's on this board like it or not and everyone should realize there will be differences of opinion and some will take offense, even if it's spoken or written in a respectful manner. Again it might not be what is spoken, but how it's being spoken.

Secondly, It seems people have forgotten what NAM is, a MINI forum started by one person as a hobby to share the love/like of the Mini/MINI that has turned into a business.

However, how does one walk the line serving two Masters in fairness?

Those being the vendors that supply the revenue or members who frequent the site.

 

I agree with all those that say they are tired of hearing " Do a search, it has been talked about already " My take on this is if you can take the time to say this, why not help out by providing a link to the subject. Also the " It's in the manual' read it " response, again if you can take the time to be snarky about it, let folks know it is in the manual, maybe give a page #, or give a short answer about the issue, and let them know that more info is in the manual.

I know a lot of members use computers for their work, and being efficient on one is important, but lots of us are not computer savvy, and our cars and this site are a hobby of sorts, not a job where time=$$$.

Mark

 

There are all some very good points being made here. I've seen first hand the over-moderation as well as heard this from many other members. It is very hard to find a balance. Running a few message boards myself I find the same troubles that NAM faces, of course a smaller scale.

Lotsie - Good job for starting this thread to gain feedback as a mod to help promote and build a good board.

 

I think a lot has to also do with the increasing stresses in real life manifesting themselves in the forums. I made the (evidently egregious) mistake of stickying a thread per request of one of the members, What followed ended up being quite a few posts that were bordering on nasty telling me to undo the horror I had caused.

Yeah, I havent been feeling the NAM love lately either, and as a result, I dont spend as much time here as before, and my urge to participate is way down while I am here.

 

Or both?

If its the perception that I (we) don't do this then let's talk about your concerns

While not always perfect or obvious to everyone I've tried to balance the needs of members and vendors on the site. I say not always because I know that we've had some times where an issue has come up and it wasn't obvious the best way to deal with it...and had to take a course of action that later may have proved not to be the best direction. I've tried to correct these based on hindsight and be more clear in my position relative to these. Regardless if there are questions on this front let's bring them up so I can attempt to address them.

Mark

 

Greatbear - good point.

The internet and message boards give people a sense of anonymity which then makes them say things that they would never say in person. I don't think one can ever stop that or limit it...

 

So let's speak frankly about this as well. Let's layout some examples of what has been seen and see what we can do to reduce this going forward. Once we have some of the examples in front of us I can look at if it was something I did (and can address why) or if it was something one of moderators took action on. We can address the whys of the actions, whether they were justified, and was it the result of not providing the right kind of information/expectations to the members of the site or a lack in consistency of the moderator team (and what we should do to improve consistency).

BTW - We've been having similar discussions between the moderators of the site and I find that this is already paying dividends in how we are looking at the site. Having constructive discussion around tough and sometimes emotional topics is very refreshing to me and I look forward to what we can learn and take away from this thread.

 

At no time in history have so many people advanced to expert status in so many areas as we are experiencing now with the Internet and it various communities. In the past one toiled alone or in a small group, ideas were shared via letters and then the telephone. Ideas and information took time to spread and had the benefit of this slower exchange to be coalesced by a few before being spread to a larger population. Internet time has shrunk this process form years to hours. The normal filtering process has been removed. Instead of a few people with a deep knowledge testing a smaller number of ideas we now have a large population that may know very little expounding over very small claims. With the masses involved individual agendas are pushed to the forefront under the guise of supporting the masses. The new medium with it's real time exchange allows even those that have nothing constrictive to contribute to be heard, usually to interject irrelevant and discordant themes.

Thousands of years of ingrained methodology has been tossed out the window for expediency and to allow the masses give voice, no matter how off topic. This Internet experiment is not going away. Those that have been involved since the early days often lament the lack of civility there once was. The first person to "respond to all" was taught in the error of their ways by peers. The Internet population has grown to point we are no longer peers but many divergent groups that rally around their own cause.

What we see here on NAM is merely a microcosm of whats going in world. Tensions between nations are at an all time high. That is reflected in contentious posts. The Executive Office's doctrine of either you are with us or a traitor filters down to the message board level with such vitriolic posts expounding on one's ideas of the right and wrong way to accomplish a goal. Grey areas that should lead to informed discussion become battlefields of competing ideologies. In the center are the uneducated irreverent masses that pile on one side or the other to merely to have a voice. In the end there is no gain for all, only animosity.

How does a community go about banding back together. This is an unknown, many are studying this phenomenon. What has been shown time and time again is there is a natural ebb and flow of ideas and members in these communities. The easy accessibility to all, coupled with real time replies from a large community hasten these flows. We want it all but yet that is not going to happen. Textual media no matter the number of smiley icons will never replace the face to face or even voice to voice intercourses between humans. To much of the senders intent is left to the receiver to interpret .

Part of this is our own lowering of standards in our culture. No child left behind is a fallacy, some children do need to be left back, just as some need to pushed along faster. Pandering to the lowest common denominator only brings down the group. The point is that if you strive to better yourself then the community as a whole will do better. If all you do is shout out interjections and offer nothing then the community will suffer. In my view thats what this community is facing.

Before you hit the reply button stand back and look over your post. Does it add to the conversation or merely add to your post count. I think many of you will find you are posting dribble.

Let me clarify that posting in Off Topic is a free for all and the above text only refers to On Topic areas.

 

While I agree with your post to a point, dribble has it's place on NAM too. It's called OT & it's a place made for members to cut up, let our hair down, & talk about anything & everything including dribble. I guess what I am saying (not accusing you of it but just saying) is that sometimes there is an elitist attitude on NAM & some of the tech savvy seem to think that those of us talented in dribble are only here to increase our post count & do not belong. In my eye that is total fallacy & OT makes a great contribution to the socialization of the NAM community

 

in my opinion, some moderators seem like web-bots, quoting rules or info from vendors with little in the way of seeming like normal members here. a little personality when it comes to managing things goes a long way....dare I say seeming human makes people less likely to jump on your case.

one issue I've run across that could be taken the wrong way....a moderator coming behind and merging two replies into one post. Sometimes, we forget to use the multi-quote feature (or, we see something else we'd like to reply to)...apparently, this is a big deal! It seems quite petty to 'manage' the site down to this level when there are bigger fish to fry. Another example of this.....spellchecks, punctuation fixes, etc. If the member asks for it, by all means. Otherwise, leave it alone please. OCD tendencies be damned

 

I've edited my post to reflect my thoughts are for On Topic areas only.

 

i think part of the problem is based in the mini community not just this website.

things are more simple in the evo and rex forums because the fan base is more united. In the mini community you have very very different car owners all coming under the same place trying to share ideas.

I mean just look at the kind of people we have here..
-people that have bought into the british thing 10 fold
-people that own a mini because it's a fun car to mod
-people that just own it because it makes sense as transportation
-car people that happen to own minis
-bench racers that happen to drive mini's

this is why you will have cliques on this board... and why other boards will be there own click and spin offs of what nam started a long time ago. It results because of the subgroups.

shiites and suni's? i wouldn't go that far yet.

p.s. of course... i also agree with what good'ol'nat posted above.

 

/\ good points

 

It is very hard to moderate and control a forum... Credit has to be given to the NAM Mod team and Mark for keeping the forum growing

Mark - Here is a thread about the over moderation.

http://www.motoringunderground.com/f...ead.php?t=7523

 

people like this are the reason NAM is having problems. my comment was in no way related to this one person but, he took it the wrong way and right off the bat was out of line. i was commenting on how harsh ppl were being towards this one guy for trying to sell his car. keep in mind nobull is posting to me. i in no way was starting with him.

Nobull60 vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
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Join Date: Aug 2002
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Re: Excuss me ???
[quote=DOPAMINE] Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobull60
Quote:
Originally Posted by DOPAMINE
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobull60
Quote:
man, you people are rough.

the guy is tryin to sell his car. you dont like it? so what? move along. no one needs or wants to hear your comments.

bump for you.[/qoute]


I believe you were refering to me when you posted this. First of all, I go back a few with this person and have a running joke with them. So why don't you mind your own F * C KING business and move on *ZZHOLE before you slam someone you don't know. If you have a problem then PM the person don't post Sh *t, OK?? Thank you


your a joke.

Move on *zzhole......find someone else to **** off. Like you said yourself, move along, no one needs to or wants to hear your comments.

i should move on?
your the one PMing me, you stupid old man.
stop picking fights via the web, tough guy.

OK now I'm scared ........hope to meet you someday.

 

[quote=DOPAMINE;1810149]people like this are the reason NAM is having problems. my comment was in no way related to this one person but, he took it the wrong way and right off the bat was out of line. keep in mind he is posting to me.

Nobull60 vbmenu_register("postmenu_", true);
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Re: Excuss me ???
Yeah...this is the lovely stuff I get to see all day long. So...a couple of questions about this type of post/reply:

1) Why does someone feel compelled to post this way?

2) Why wasn't this post reported?

3) If reported what would be the appropriate level of action to take? My first inclination would be to issue a strike for language and respect for fellow members. While a little profanity isn't a big deal...directing it at someone is a different thing altogether. To me this speaks of a general intolerance of other opinions on the site.

Thoughts?

Mark

 

I have to admit...we had a problem here that I've since corrected. The issue was that I put Sam into a role that is geared to acquiring and supporting the vendors of the site. In order to do that he had to have access to many of the admin/moderator features to perform his job. Given that we were very shorthanded on moderators at the time he began to take on some of the admin and moderator tasks. After we ran into problems with this I redirected him so that his task is directed solely at supporting vendors...no moderation and no administration is to be done on the site. Effectively I want a clear separation between the vendors needs/request/etc. and how the site is managed (ie - balancing the needs of vendors and members). I know that there was a period where we weren't very good at this but I hope that this still isn't going on. If it is then PLEASE let me know.

As for general moderation and how it relates to the site...here is a link to the moderator guidelines I put together about a month ago. These have been presented to the moderators and we'll actively update them to meet the needs and changing dynamics of the site. In fact, the mod guidelines and the discussions we've been having between moderators resulted in this thread being posted by Lotsie...and the input received here is already resulting in new thinking on how best to develop and manage the site going forward.

Mark

 

I am probably the one who has done this the most. The main reason I have done it is that it makes the thread a lot easier to read. I have seen extreme cases where someone went through a thread and posted 2, 4, 6... even 10 separate replies in a thread, back-to-back, without any other posters in-between. It really makes the thread harder to follow, because you have an extra header, an extra signature and whole lot of white space for each and every reply, without return dialog. More often than not, each post is a separate quoted reply - spread out like that, it's like trying to catch up on a whole bunch of separate conversations at once!

I am -very- careful not to edit any content when I merge posts. I agree there are bigger fish to fry, but the merge feature is very quick and easy to use, so it only takes a few seconds.

May I ask why the practice bothers you? Often times it comes down to an issue of the poster simply not knowing how to multiquote, and I'm happy to help educate them (and I usually do, politely... when I see multiple instances of the same poster doing it). Other times it's because people forget they can just edit their existing post instead of starting a new one.Post content is not and will never be edited to fix this sort of thing - what you post is what you post, and it's not our place to edit it (as long as it isn't disrespectful or otherwise blatantly out of line). However, thread titles are, and will be - by a number of Moderators (not just me). Why?

1. Proper spelling, punctuation & capitalization is much easier on the eyes to read, when on a forum and browsing thread titles
2. It makes searches easier to perform, with greater accuracy (obviously this applies more to spelling than the others)
3. It simply looks more professional!

Provided that the intended topic conveyed by the thread title is still clearly retained, where is the problem here?

 

Edge,

Why not post the directions on how to use the Multi-Quote feature in the FAQ Section for Reading and Posting Messages

 

A very good idea. I already have a tutorial written up in an old post of mine I sometimes link to (here), but adding to or updating the FAQ section with the same info is definitely worthwhile.

 

There's a FAQ section

j/k... kindasorta... but it really didn't jump out & catch my attention when I first joined

 

Orwellian, I guess

 

[quote=Mark;1810173]just to be clear...this was sent to me through a PM. it wasnt put out in the open. i was just commenting on the nature of the comments.

why do people feel compelled to post like this? thats a good question. obviously the bigger thing is to just ignore a post your offended by. or just add a or something but, some people just have to say something.

why wasnt it reported? in my case, it was sent in a PM and for me thats a little bit more respectable. also, im not a rat. i posted this to get a point across not, to get anyone in trouble.

level of action? well, being that i have a strike against me for speaking my mind...getting kicked off this site is far from a threat (no offense). im sure some people feel the same way. i would just remove their posts. nothing worse than having that freedom revoked. i cant rememebr what i said to get the strike but, my comment is still there im sure for all to see. so, all in all, the strike means nothing.

with a site this broad, with 1000 different personalities and a million thoughts we are going to have to take the good with the bad. people have to rememeber that its all in fun and not to take things to seriously.

now, as many of you may know i am all for free speech and an open debate. i admit that i enjoy getting under some peoples skin from time to time but, there is a line. again, i am not perfect and i have crossed the line a couple times. mostly, i think, because its hard to get context across via the web but, right or wrong, i feel that people just need to keep their cool.

 

I've gotten those types of PM's too. I just at them

 

It bothers me because when something is merged, a recent comment may be put back a few posts, and it will get missed in a fast moving thread, when in actuality the post deserves more attention.

People post the way they post, let them post in their own style. Just because the moderation team feels it would be easier to read, that might be an individual opinion.

I personally get upset when my posts get edited, and before I became a moderator, that happened frequently.

Just let it be, don't over moderate.