... This is the first FWD car I've owned and I am not an understeer enthusiast. Anybody have any comments as to the wisdom (or lack thereof) of using left-foot-braking to help yaw the car?

Had a friend back in college with a tweaked Saab 96 Monte Carlo who swore by it. Of course that was long before the days of dynamic chassis controls. But physics is physics...

[imgleft]http://www.shareyourpix.com/inc/i_importimage.aspx?u=356&a=589&i=9262&w=500&h=100[/imgleft]

 

eh, you can do it, but its not the best way to get it to come around, ends up being slower most of the time than just properly trail-braking the car (easier said than done I know). A stiffer rear sway bar sounds like what you need to me. . .

 

Mini's usually oversteer like a fiend.

 

... I pretty much expect that. Other that bumping up the rear anti-roll bar diameter to the point at which it functionally becomes an additional spring, how, pray tell, is this accomplished.

Besides maybe an enthusiastically sharp tug on the handbrake, that is.

 

Mine gets more oversteer under accelleration. Check out the Solo 2 forum for good info also.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...splay.php?f=51

 

Left foot braking has its place, gravel stages mainly, but also Go-Karts, Turbo charged cars where maintaining a load (and hence boost) is important and also to some extent Formula cars.

I have found the Mini to be pretty neutral, sure it can be made to understeer, but really you have to try pretty hard to do so.

Tire pressures, spring rates, roll bars etc will all adjust the handling (fairly dramatically in many cases). Learning how to LFB is an excercise in futility for most road cars, and utterly pointless for the vast majority of car/driver combinations in nearly all circumstances. If you are left-foot braking, you are also rev-matching your downshifts (no clutch remember) which is not only horribly prone to errors - especially in the heat of competition - but is going to cause you gearbox life-expectancy issues further down the line.

You can (probably) go a whole lot faster without resorting to LFB just by

1) Learning to drive the car
2) Learning how to setup the stock car
3) Choosing upgrades to stock components very carefully.

 

huh? You'll have an awfully hard time to get a mini to oversteer on the throttle! It will tuck when you lift pretty well, like a good handling front driver should, but it will hardly oversteer under accelleration. . .

 

Tire pressures and alignment

You can LFB if you want, but using excessive trailbraking to get the back end out is not fast.

95% of all understeer is driver induced. Going too hot into the corner is the main culprit. You have to slow the car way down before you turn in - more than your previous RWD car.

I was instructing at an autocross school once and had a student with road race experience, but he had never autocrossed. He couldn't stop the car from understeering in the tight corners. I said, "slow down more". So he did, but not enough and the car still pushed. So I said, "slow down even more", which he did but it was still pushing. Finally, I said, "slow down so much that it feels stupid." Which he did, and when the car just stuck all the way through the corner, he was like

If you're pushing all the way through the corner, you're NOT accelarating. As a rule of thumb, if you aren't accelarating by the apex of the corner or before, you're losing time. In my HS car, I pretty much take my foot off the brake and press the throttle straight to the floor. Not much coasting when you have big sticky tires coupled to no torque

 

Left foot braking is an excellent way to get around a course that is tight enough not to req any shifting. I have seen many competitors at our local Auto-X use it to bring back very decent results. Allows you to carry a bit more brake into the corner while getting on the go pedal a bit sooner.

 

LEFT FOOT BRAKING
To over simplify:

Left Foot Braking = Less Weight Transfer = Less Oversteer
Right Foot Braking = More Weight Transfer = More Oversteer

I use left foot braking quite a bit for fast, big transitions, or when ever you need to brake while turning at the top of second gear (or third).

You'll find that you can slow the car without upsetting the rear. But on a tight autocross course (local event), it's not that useful.

GET THE CAR TO OVERSTEER
-Adjust rear toe (zero rear toe, or toe out)
-Softer front sway bar / stiffer rear sway bar
-Stiffen rear shocks / soften front shocks
-More rear tire pressure (front pressure should be set for max grip)

 

If I romp on the gas while turning, snap oversteer.

 

I disagree mitch. I have seen some very experienced drivers left foot brake an entire tight auto-x course. The big advantage is that you normally don't have to brake at the extreme on a tight course. You can just touch the brake to set yourself up for the next turn with out having to transfer your feet.

 

Keep the left foot braking thing in perspective, though: It's not a magic pill that separates the fast guys from the slow guys, it's something that might, on some courses, save you a few fractions of a second. There are some fast drivers that don't left foot brake.

For example, supposedly Damon Hill didn't left foot brake - and he was fast enough to win the F1 world championship

 

um, I think you must be doing something else if you're oversteering on throttle. Are you lifting beforehand? Theres simply no way for a FWD car to throttle oversteer like I think you're describing. Say you're making a left turn at a stoplight. If you just take the wheel from a stop, turn the wheel, and romp on the gas (and don't lift AT ALL), it will understeer, no matter what. If you lift slightly, it will tuck in and possibly oversteer, but if you stay flat on the gas, theres simply no physical way for a FWD car to oversteer on-throttle.

And all the left foot braking stuff. . .

If you don't KNOW it will make you faster, don't bother. Focus on other things instead, b/c unless its done PERFECTLY, it will slow you down every time.

 

This does sound very funny. It's certainly well outside anything I've ever experienced in a FWD car, and I've been autocrossing (and occasionally doing track events in) FWD's for nearly a decade.

I suspect you must be confusing understeer with oversteer.

If not, and you seriously get oversteer after romping on the throttle in the middle of a corner, I think you might have a problem in your rear suspension.

I certainly have had my Mini oversteer, and even spin, but it has always been the result of either tragically cold rear tires and/or me lifting the throttle too aggressively.

 

ScottinBend: That's never worked for me. But I could see how someone could make it work. I can threshold brake better with my right foot then my left. I'm generlizing but it seems like I need to brake much harder (threshold brake) on small, tight courses then large national type courses.

satay-ayam: I agree. There's a bunch a really good drivers in our area that don't left foot brake and they are national champions.

 

what oversteer? No E-brake or Left foot braking was used on this turn

 

2ndMiniac and myself have both gotten our MCS's to oversteer during autocross sessions .....while on the gas. My assumption is too much speed for a tight turn while accelerating anchors the front tires but there's nothing to anchor the rears. I'm sure there's a way to set up the car to negate this, but when you're taking your everyday driver out for an autocross and you're too lazy to adjust the suspension it's something you have to live with. My first place in class finishes have been the result of a smooth lap with minimal over or understeer, right foot braking, and accelerating through and out of the apex.

 

Car is setup extremely Loose and i do most courses with either slight tap to the break or fully by throttle control. Since i run these for fun. I love putting on a show but still going fast enough to win my class (SM)

 

I think it all comes down to how comfortable you are with left foot braking. I myself can't do it with any semblance of consistancy. I can start the course with some confidence, but as soon as I am really concentrating on the course I revert back to wanting to right foot brake. So of course I screw up the run by jamming on the brake thinking it's the clutch. The drivers who try and get more folks to try it say it takes a long time to get comfortable doing it. But it can reduce your times. Most runs are decided by fractions of a second, so any way of reducing the time involved with going from braking to throttle could be a race winner.

 

Mugami: Great photos!

Looks like standard "Corner Entry Oversteer" to me. Notice how the car stopped oversteering once you got back on the throttle while exiting the corner. Man you got that thing setup loose!

 

I use a very interesting set up. Since I've yet to get any proper shocks. For suspension only. I have the 03 shocks in the rear (came with the car) and the 05 softer valve shocks in the front (paid 25.00 to a guy who swaped his out) on a set of Racing dynamic lowering springs (125.00 sale). Also reciently purchased the Noltec Front camber/caster plates (200.00 love the bargin bin) and two of the old Alta rear control arms. The Steel version(50.00). Then proceded to Square the car. Toe is at 0% front and rear with 1.7% camber also front and rear. I set the Caster at 5.1% to loosen up the car for inital turn ins since the group down here love there 90 and 160% single cone turns.
Other reason for the looseness is the Tire selection im using Toyo 225/45/15 RA-1's on the front on 15x7 rim. While in the rear its the Hankooks RS2 205/50/15 on the Holies 15x5.5 rim

I use to drive Sprints a few years back (ok more like 10+). So sliding a car around is nothing new to me. Best slide to date is when i had the car 115% give or take 5% going through a gate. While watching a Turnmarshal, cone snagger, grabber, you know the other thing on the course we are suppose to avoid .. Jaw drop to the ground and the announcer go speachless. on a side note i have yet to loop the car, but its only a matter of time before i do.

 

Never meant to say that oversteer wasn't possible while on the gas, but there must have been at least some lift (not necessarily getting off the gas altogether, but taking the pedal off the floor). I was only trying to say that throttle induced oversteer isn't possible in a FWD car, the way you induce oversteer is by lifting in a FWD car. . .

 

I learned to use LF braking on my last car, a BMW 325. My MCS has yet to arrive, so time will tell about it. I practiced LF braking a lot on the street before using it in an autox. I did not use it a lot, and usually when I was pretty sure that no gear changes would be needed for an element or two. I never got mixed up with the clutch/brake. I used to fly a tailwheel airplane, and I think that helped with getting the feel for LF brake use. Clearly good drivers do well with and without LF braking, so it seems to come down to an individual choice. I am just itching to get my new baby and get it run in and ready to play.

Waiting patiently,

Joe s

 

If you can fit your left leg under the steering wheel comfortably to cover the brake pedal (shouldn't be a problem) try it. I can't on my 93 RX-7 because of the wheel being in the way and it not tilting. When paddle shifters first came to F1, the guys who did LFB in Kart really shined. It's a good skill to have and is just plain faster to transition from throttle to braking. Every hundreth of a second counts towards being faster.