After somewhat of an ordeal we finally got the tires mounted. Next week the car gets an alignment. How much negative camber can we expect to get up front? Is the caster adjustable at all? Its an 04 Cooper with SS+ suspension. We have both stock front sway bars but will be starting with the SS+ one.

Lastly, do any of you adjust rear toe on-site? I used to have index marks on the cam-bolts for the rear lateral arms on my neon ACR so I could adjust the rear toe to the course and surface; more toe-in for wet/damp/cold/dusty surface and/or transition-intensive courses, more toe-out for warm/high-grip surfaces and/or sweeper-intensive courses.

Also

 

Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the MINI's. You'll see around .4-.8 degrees of negative camber up front and between .8-1.1 of negative camber in the rear. If you've got more or less, something's probably bent. No big deal though, unless left-to-right are very different.

You honestly don't need to change the rear toe that drastically, and will notice better changes by adjusting rear pressure. The key would be to determine your ideal dry performance toe-out and leave it. If it's wet or dusty, drop the rear pressures. Or up them if you want more rotation.

I wouldn't go with more than zero toe in the rear. You risk having a twichy car and not having a quick fix (like tire pressures).

Brian

 

>>Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the MINI's. You'll see around .4-.8 degrees of negative camber up front and between .8-1.1 of negative camber in the rear.

More negative camber in the rear than front seems contrary to my previous FWD experience. On the ACR I ran -2.8 front and zero rear. But then again, the MINI is certainly no Neon. Just double checking that we want to max the negative camber in the rear.

Got the message on the rear toe. We'll set it to zero and leave it alone.

We want to get a semi-competitve set-up to start with and then leave everything (except tire pressure) alone for the first half of the season while we get accustomed to the car. Its actually quite a bit larger and heavier than what we've been running for the last couple years.

 

You quoted me and still didn't *read* the quote. You CAN'T adjust the negative camber...AT ALL. You don't have a choice, wherever the front and rear numbers are is where they stay.

Most cars on the road come from the factory with more negative camber in the rear for safety reasons. The manufacturers don't want people spinning their cars and blaming them.
It's likely your ACR came from the factory the same way, and then you or someone else changed that since it's adjustable. Again, the MINI is NOT adjustable.

Brian

 

Sorry to be so ignorant. I've never owned a car where there wasn't at least a few 1/0ths of a degree of adjustment to be had, even though there was supposedly "no adjustement." Loosen everything up, have the biggest gorilla in the shop lean on the top of the wheel and the next biggest gorilla pull on the bottom of the wheel while you tighten everything back up

We'll just set the toe and motor.

 

>>Sorry to be so ignorant. I've never owned a car where there wasn't at least a few 1/0ths of a degree of adjustment to be had, even though there was supposedly "no adjustement." Loosen everything up, have the biggest gorilla in the shop lean on the top of the wheel and the next biggest gorilla pull on the bottom of the wheel while you tighten everything back up

While it is true that for a stock MINI there is not much to adjust with, my alignment shop didn't seem to indicate that they couldn't do an alignment to factory specs even without adjustable rear control arms. Perhaps they have several gorillas in the shop to assist as needed.

As an example of stock alignment specs, here are numbers for a 2003 MCS with 17" wheels

(all numbers in degrees)
Left and right front wheels
Camber -0.9 to -0.1
Caster 4.3 to 5.3
Toe (in) 0.13 to 0.18
Turning angle difference -1.77 to -0.77

Front end
Cross camber -0.5 to 0.5
Cross caster -0.5 to 0.5
Total toe 0.25 to 0.35

Left and right rear wheels
Camber -2.0 to -1.0
Toe (in) 0.13 to 0.27

Rear end
Cross camber -0.5 to 0.5
Total toe 0.27 to 0.53
Thrust angle -0.17 to 0.17

You might check with an alignment shop to see if the MC specs would be much different.


_________________
MINIlani home of Jasmine Trias

 

>>It's likely your ACR came from the factory the same way, and then you or someone else changed that since it's adjustable.

Actually my first ACR (a '95) came with a giant hang-tag on the rear-view mirror noting that an alignement to the customer's specifications was part of the pre-delivery process.

The car was virtually undrivable in the condition it came off the truck; looked to be 2 degrees of positive camber on the front wheels.

 

>>Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the MINI's. You'll see around .4-.8 degrees of negative camber up front and between .8-1.1 of negative camber in the rear. If you've got more or less, something's probably bent. No big deal though, unless left-to-right are very different.
>>
>>You honestly don't need to change the rear toe that drastically, and will notice better changes by adjusting rear pressure. The key would be to determine your ideal dry performance toe-out and leave it. If it's wet or dusty, drop the rear pressures. Or up them if you want more rotation.
>>
>>I wouldn't go with more than zero toe in the rear. You risk having a twichy car and not having a quick fix (like tire pressures).
>>
>>Brian

Brian--I'm coming from a 318ti doing DEs/open track on road courses (WGI, Mosport, Mid-Ohio) for the last 8 yrs and I'm thinking of getting a MC or MCS....do you think I could get away with running it stock (with SS+) suspension-wise and not understeering off the track (i.e. Turn 5 @ Mosport or just about any turn @ Mid-O)? And do you think I'd miss not having an LSD (if I got a 2004)?

Any help is appreciated, and thanks.

 

>>>>Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the MINI's. You'll see around .4-.8 degrees of negative camber up front and between .8-1.1 of negative camber in the rear. If you've got more or less, something's probably bent. No big deal though, unless left-to-right are very different.
>>>>
>>>>You honestly don't need to change the rear toe that drastically, and will notice better changes by adjusting rear pressure. The key would be to determine your ideal dry performance toe-out and leave it. If it's wet or dusty, drop the rear pressures. Or up them if you want more rotation.
>>>>
>>>>I wouldn't go with more than zero toe in the rear. You risk having a twichy car and not having a quick fix (like tire pressures).
>>>>
>>>>Brian
>>
>>Brian--I'm coming from a 318ti doing DEs/open track on road courses (WGI, Mosport, Mid-Ohio) for the last 8 yrs and I'm thinking of getting a MC or MCS....do you think I could get away with running it stock (with SS+) suspension-wise and not understeering off the track (i.e. Turn 5 @ Mosport or just about any turn @ Mid-O)? And do you think I'd miss not having an LSD (if I got a 2004)?
>>
>>Any help is appreciated, and thanks.

gbuff1,

Aloha from Hawaii and welcome to NAM.
For autocross if you want to compete in stock classes. You'd be best off to start with-
H-stock using an MC with sport suspension plus and the lightest stock wheels like the 15x5.5 holies with track tires like Kumho victoracer v700 or Falken Azenis sport in 205/50-15 (yes, they will fit but the tire will be a bit narrower). If you get the 5 spoke rims with runflat tires you can still run those but it won't be as sticky.
G-stock using an MCS (already comes with SS+ or the equivalent suspension) but this is harder to keep up in. Use 16" X-lyte rims (still heavy) and switch to Kumho v700 tires or Falken Azenis sport.

Understeering is always a concern with FWD but you can use tire pressures to adjust a little and learn how your MINI handles to control for it. You cannot add a beefy rear sway bar to help reduce understeer and stay in stock class.
No real changes in alignment worth the trouble of doing it for stock classes.

You can PM Brian Garfield for more info directly.

 

>>>>>>Caster and Camber are not adjustable on the MINI's. You'll see around .4-.8 degrees of negative camber up front and between .8-1.1 of negative camber in the rear. If you've got more or less, something's probably bent. No big deal though, unless left-to-right are very different.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You honestly don't need to change the rear toe that drastically, and will notice better changes by adjusting rear pressure. The key would be to determine your ideal dry performance toe-out and leave it. If it's wet or dusty, drop the rear pressures. Or up them if you want more rotation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>I wouldn't go with more than zero toe in the rear. You risk having a twichy car and not having a quick fix (like tire pressures).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Brian
>>>>

Thanks minihune, I'm going to continue with DEs and open track but I'm sure the autox info applies.....
>>>>Brian--I'm coming from a 318ti doing DEs/open track on road courses (WGI, Mosport, Mid-Ohio) for the last 8 yrs and I'm thinking of getting a MC or MCS....do you think I could get away with running it stock (with SS+) suspension-wise and not understeering off the track (i.e. Turn 5 @ Mosport or just about any turn @ Mid-O)? And do you think I'd miss not having an LSD (if I got a 2004)?
>>>>
>>>>Any help is appreciated, and thanks.
>>
>>gbuff1,
>>
>>Aloha from Hawaii and welcome to NAM.
>>For autocross if you want to compete in stock classes. You'd be best off to start with-
>>H-stock using an MC with sport suspension plus and the lightest stock wheels like the 15x5.5 holies with track tires like Kumho victoracer v700 or Falken Azenis sport in 205/50-15 (yes, they will fit but the tire will be a bit narrower). If you get the 5 spoke rims with runflat tires you can still run those but it won't be as sticky.
>>G-stock using an MCS (already comes with SS+ or the equivalent suspension) but this is harder to keep up in. Use 16" X-lyte rims (still heavy) and switch to Kumho v700 tires or Falken Azenis sport.
>>
>>Understeering is always a concern with FWD but you can use tire pressures to adjust a little and learn how your MINI handles to control for it. You cannot add a beefy rear sway bar to help reduce understeer and stay in stock class.
>>No real changes in alignment worth the trouble of doing it for stock classes.
>>
>>You can PM Brian Garfield for more info directly.
>>