I had my first event in SM last Sunday. There were 29 entries in SM, I finished 7th. I think I gave up some time with the PZero Corsa's (I have Victoracers on order now). But the competition above me was tough: A modified Twin Turbo Supra took 1st and 2nd, a modded M3 was 3rd, another prepped M3 was 4th, a turbo Neon was 5th, a Subaru STi was 6th. I was THREE seconds away from 1st, tough class for our little cars.

Autocross - compete results

_________________
IB/W some mods

 

Nice work!!

But how much nicer would it be to have got'n that Neon? Only .212 to go... sweeeet.

Pound

 

I have my first SCCA this upcoming weekend. I am running Kuhmp Vito Racer 225 50 r16

Good job on your race.

 

I've gotten a new set of Victoracers also, but they had to be 17" to clear the brakes.
My next event is April 18th.
Good luck Dan, give us a report!

 

Here in the Indy region SCCA, a Mini has won both SM events this year.
He killed all us WRX drivers. and not by just a little bit either.

 

>>Here in the Indy region SCCA, a Mini has won both SM events this year.
>>He killed all us WRX drivers.

(sorry, but I love it)

earl

 

Any idea what sort of aftermarket parts and setup he's running?

 

I've got a pretty good idea what the Indiana SM Mini is running. It's not doing too bad in the CSCC events in Columbus, IN either.

Quaife (new this winter)
SPAX coilovers (23 to 28 in front, 26 to 28 in rear, 28 is stiffest setting)
H-Sport rear links (all 4) (-1.8deg camber, 0 toe)
K-Mac camber plates (-2.2deg camber, 0 toe, 5deg caster)
RDR rear sway bar (stiffest setting)
Magnaflow
BMP intake
16x7.5 Kosei K1 w/ 215 Azenis (42F, 38R)

Note that all of the above just makes it a pretty decently set up STX car.

The SM part? 15% pulley from Helix. Obviously not done to be competitive in SM. I just couldn't resist any longer. I do have a stock diameter pulley on order so I can try STX at a few CENDIV events this summer, just to benchmark.

Scott
90SM

 

Randy always talked about how hard that Turbo Supra was to beat in SM. Michael Feldpusch is strong too.

I gather you have probably talked pretty extensively with Randy already about his experience in SM. Also Mark Ferguson may have some inputs if you haven't quized him already. Mark and Mason were running STX all last year.

Dave

 

Scott,

We're running pretty similar setups so I'm encouraged! I don't have the quaife yet but hope to get it by the middle of the season if I can get enough overtime.

How did you arrive at your alignment settings? I currently have -2.5 front with 1/16 toe in and -2 rear with 1/8 toe in. This was recommended by H-sport as a good starting setup. I'll also be running 205/50/15 Victoracers. Will this necesitate differnt allignment do you think?

Gene

 

Ideally you should set camber based on tire temperatures, so changing to Victoracers might mean a different optimum camber setting due to higher potential side loads. I would guess that you'll still be in a similar range for autocrossing, but that is a guess.

Why are you running toe in? That will help with high speed stability and probably isn't a bad setting for the average street driver, but is less than optimum for autocrossing. You'll get quicker steering response and vehicle rotation with zero toe, and quicker yet with a little toe out. Toe in or out accelerates tire wear, if that is a concern. If you change anything, go to zero toe all the way around and try that for awhile. If it feels good they you might try a small amount of toe out as an experiment. This will not be a good alignment setting for reading the paper on your morning commute. The car will be very happy to change lanes at highway speeds.

Scott
90SM

 

D'OH! Just reviewed my settings which I set based on Rec's from Hsport.

To quote:

4/ I can provide you with some starting cambers and toes. You would adjust from here as to surface conditions and the big factor – personal preference and feel.



Street

Fr

Toe 1/16th out total

Cmbr between ¾ and 1 deg. neg

RR

Toe 1/8th in total

Cmbr 1 degree neg

Bars F/R soft/soft



Track

Fr

Toe 1/8th out total

Cmbr 2 to 2.3 deg. neg

RR

Toe 1/8th in total

Cmbr 2.5 to 3 or more deg. Neg.

Bars F/R your preference but try hard/middle



Auto-x (very much your preference, many variables – tight radius’, surface types & your style entering a corner)

Start with the track settings and go from there. Toe changes will make big differences. Bars as well.



Let me know if you have other questions.





Mark Hotchkis

HSport

12035 Burke Street

Suite 11

Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670

562.907.7757 ext227

I did start with the track settings (except for the front sway bar, which I didn't install). Luckily, a friend of mine has a new alignment shop in his shop and says he'll teach me to use it (and I can then use it anytime I want). I may try the zero/zero toe idea after the next race.

 

Right now I'm having issues with over steern in my car.... I can't figure it out... I moved the sway bar to the middle setting, with the Kuhmo Tires.. Now I can't keep the back end from sliding out.. any ideas.. I know engine stuff, but the camber and suspension stuff is a bit new to me. any help will be very appreciated.

 

The settings that Mark recommended sound reasonable, but are biased towards making sure the back end of the car never steps out. That's probably a decent idea for street and track driving, but will limit your options for autocrossing where a little oversteer can be handy and the penalty for too much is simply a slower time.

The track setting rear camber seems a little high, but that's not what I do. Some generic rules of thumb;

Toe in increases straight line stability, toe out decreases stability. Thus moving towards toe out in front will allow the car to respond to steering input more quickly and moving towards toe out in the rear will reduce understeer and increase oversteer. There IS such a thing as too much, either toe in or toe out.

Stiffening the rear sway bar relative to the front will decrease understeer / increase oversteer. It also helps reduce wheelspin coming out of the corners in a FWD car, though not as effectively as a limited slip diff. Stiffening the front bar relative to the rear will do just the opposite.


For what it is worth, I run the same alignment and swaybar settings on the street (about 90 miles a day) from February through November (our autocross season). Damper settings get dialed back a bit most of the time, but not always. For the winter I did go to the softest rear swaybar setting and dialed the damper settings way back, just to remind myself not to destroy my snow tires.

Try the rear bar in the middle setting, set toe to zero all the way around and see what that feels like. If you don't spin it every run, go to the stiffest setting on the rear sway bar. If you want more rotation in the corners, dial in some toe out. If the steering response seems to slow for you, try a little toe out in front.

The way mine is set now, I never get any understeer and I can easily adjust the attitude of the car mid-turn with the throttle. Spins are pretty rare for me at this point, though I do occasionally hear comments about "vicious snap oversteer" when a certain friend/competitor co-drives. I think he's just trying to play mind games.

Either way, I suggest finding the limits in a safe environment (autocross) first before any aggressive experimentation on the street or road course. The swaybar and alignment changes will significantly change the car's behavior at the limit. Driving style is a factor too, so there is no one magic setting that is best for everyone and every thing.

Have fun.
Scott
90SM

 

Great explanation! All this racing talk is making my right foot itch. I can't wait until the first Steel Cities event next weekend.

 

7th Place again on Sunday. This was with a new set of shaved and heat cycled Victoracers. I was still getting wheelspin in 1st and 2nd gears - I need a quaiffe!
My son, who got his license March 1st, improved and got to 19th place this time after he started having clean runs.
Another S got 1st place in GS.

RM solo results April 18th

 

Detroit Region SCCA just created a new Street Tire Street Mod for this year. This is the class I starting running this year at the Season Opener yesterday.

My first autocross ever; I finished 2nd in TSM, but was 8 tenths down, so my points are only 83 of 100, ouch.

My Setup to date:
KW Springs (not as good as the H-Sports)
H-Sport front and rear Comp bars, soft in front, full stiff in back
stock camber up front, -1.5 degrees in back
Yoko Parada2 205/45-17 running 38PSI front and 36PSI rear with 17x7 ET 42
Ferodo 2500's
182 wHP 167 wLb-Ft

The car feels like it needs another inch of rubber up front, however the tarmac was very raw (worn down so rocks were showing, no more smooth surfacing), which made for an abrasive yet slippery surface. I could also probably use a bit of toe adjustment in back, as it's 1/8" toe-in (stock) right now. Apart from that, I just need more seat time to get used to the whole auto-x thing.

Next event is Memorial Day :smile:

 

Ryephile --

Hi! Just joined NAM so I'm no longer a lurker. Got a couple of decent pictures of both you and AGOKART at the Detroit Season Opener. I'll post 'em as soon as I get through processing.

Congratulations on your finish. Yes, you were .8 seconds down, but there were 7 more cars behind you. Many of those had AWD and heaping gobs of power.

>>Detroit Region SCCA just created a new Street Tire Street Mod for this year. This is the class I starting running this year at the Season Opener yesterday.
>>
>>My first autocross ever; I finished 2nd in TSM, but was 8 tenths down, so my points are only 83 of 100, ouch.

 

--->MINI_xs; awesome to see you here I look forward to seeing the pics you took!

Cheers,
Ryan

 

>>Here in the Indy region SCCA, a Mini has won both SM events this year.
>>He killed all us WRX drivers.

 

If you look at one of the earlier posts, there's a really good reason that I know what that MCS' setup is. But I'm certainly no saint, though I can't complain with how the season is going so far. We're up to 6 events this year, between regions 13 and 64, and so far so good. The car is a blast to drive now, but SM is not a Mini friendly environment on a Divisional or National level. I'm not doing too bad in the Valvoline Cup points this year either, but keep in mind that I primarily run regional events and not National Tours. Little kids at home and my current work schedule are keeping me in Indiana again this year, though I plan to hit a few local CENDIV events at Peru if possible.


MiniPilo,
I missed your post from a month ago, but in case you're still having oversteer issues I do have a couple things you should check besides the rear swaybar setting.

The rear tire inflation pressure relative to the pressure of the front tires will impact breakaway characteristics. If the rear tire pressure is too high, or too low, then you will get more oversteer. Some folks like to induce some oversteer by setting the tire pressures one of those two ways. My own preference is to drop the rear tire pressure until I get the desired response, but others swear by running the rear pressure higher than the front. The feel slightly different, but I don't think there is one right answer for all driving styles.

The other thing to check is your rear toe setting. If you have too much toe out in the rear, it will make it more inclined to oversteer.

And of course the number one cause of oversteer is driving style. If you lift off the throttle in the middle of a hard turn, be ready for it!

Hope you've either fixed your setup or that some of this helps you do so.

Scott
90SM
Central Indiana
Indy Region (13), CSCC (64)


>>>>Here in the Indy region SCCA, a Mini has won both SM events this year.
>>>>He killed all us WRX drivers.

 

>>If you look at one of the earlier posts, there's a really good reason that I know what that MCS' setup is. But I'm certainly no saint, though I can't complain with how the season is going so far. We're up to 6 events this year, between regions 13 and 64, and so far so good. The car is a blast to drive now, but SM is not a Mini friendly environment on a Divisional or National level. I'm not doing too bad in the Valvoline Cup points this year either, but keep in mind that I primarily run regional events and not National Tours. Little kids at home and my current work schedule are keeping me in Indiana again this year, though I plan to hit a few local CENDIV events at Peru if possible.
>>
>>
>>MiniPilo,
>>I missed your post from a month ago, but in case you're still having oversteer issues I do have a couple things you should check besides the rear swaybar setting.
>>
>>The rear tire inflation pressure relative to the pressure of the front tires will impact breakaway characteristics. If the rear tire pressure is too high, or too low, then you will get more oversteer. Some folks like to induce some oversteer by setting the tire pressures one of those two ways. My own preference is to drop the rear tire pressure until I get the desired response, but others swear by running the rear pressure higher than the front. The feel slightly different, but I don't think there is one right answer for all driving styles.
>>
>>The other thing to check is your rear toe setting. If you have too much toe out in the rear, it will make it more inclined to oversteer.
>>
>>And of course the number one cause of oversteer is driving style. If you lift off the throttle in the middle of a hard turn, be ready for it!
>>
>>Hope you've either fixed your setup or that some of this helps you do so.
>>
>>Scott
>>90SM
>>Central Indiana
>>Indy Region (13), CSCC (64)
>>
>>
>>>>>>Here in the Indy region SCCA, a Mini has won both SM events this year.
>>>>>>He killed all us WRX drivers.
>>

Thanks for the help. I am going to a race this weekend, and am going to be playing with an Apexi Rev/Speed Meter with added G-Force Meter. This should help me get a better idea of what the car is doing with diffrent setups. I'm also changing over to a UUC Rear Sway Bar. Will see how that fairs (I may have a madness one for sale soon for cheap.)

 

--->Pilo, I almost guarantee you'll be putting that Madness bar back on! The UUC, while a very nice unit, is too small for auto-x (19mm vs. Madness = 22mm) Unless, like Sadales said, your setup is wrong, there's no reason you want a smaller rear bar in back.

 

Ryephile --

Here's a picture from one of your runs at SCCA/Detroit's Season Opener Solo:



Here's another photo, this one's of your buddy AGOKART running STX:



BTW: You didn't see me knock down a cone on my last/fastest timed run did you? I got the GS class win anyway, but I'm sure I didn't hit anything on the faster run. I'm guessing that somebody got confused working their first event -- maybe they called a cone on the wrong car. Oh well, all's well that ends well.

 

those are some mighty big pics!

Thanks for posting, I saw them on the Detroit SCCA site and was like "Cool! Our cars are up there!" Didn't see any pics of yours though :smile:

Cheers,
Ryan