Any advise about who makes a good harness to fit the stock seats? I've looked around, but would love to hear opinions from users.

Thanks you

 

Michael,
Go with a six point as five points are being phased out of most club racing.
A great belt would be the G-Force Pro. Very soft belts and quite a good price. Do get the "pull up"adjusment rather then the "pull down".
You will need some hardware also. I can help you out with that if you decide to go with a six point.
Just know that with factory seats the crotch straps are not really working as designed, but they will still function in keeping your lap belt from coming up to your chest in a colision.
Also note that some clubs really frown on having a harness without a roll bar or cage.

 

Greg,

Thanks.

Why do you think some clubs have the concern about using a harness without a roll cage? Attachments points perhaps? I should check this out first.

 

The fact that in a rollover that the roof could colapse and being that you are strapped in you have no place to go. In a factory belt you can get out of the way.

 

Ah...okay...I would like to get out in the event of a roll -over. I'll leave these alone for now. Thanks again Greg!

How do I hide a roll cage in a company vehicle from the master of money???

 

I'm the wrong guy to ask about this as 'my way' cost me about 40K in legal expences...

Ooops, I though you were talking about your wife ...

 

My wife and the accountant here are both on a war path with me...I'm hoping to avoid feathers and war paint and arrows; sometimes the car must come first.

 

I don't see the need for 6 point systems... Won't they injure your legs potentially ?

5 point strap comes up from below seat in the midline
6 point does what for safety?

 

Six point avoids the unpleasant tendency of the five point to create an uncomfortably intimate intersection of your nether parts with the fifth point if you submarine out of the harness.

If you've had all the children you plan to, a five point will do just fine.

 

Any chance you can take pictures or give an explanation of the lower mounting points you used for your lap belts and your sub belts? The shoulder locations are obvious, i was just curious as to what type of modification is required for the other attachment points. Thanks

 

- me going down a straight and then suddenly, the words in your paragraph appear amidst the screams...nether parts niether here nor there.

 

Family status complete !!!! Just practicing and perfecting now ...LOL

6 points are a bit too many, but I don't think theFAMILY JEWELS may be better off with them !!!

 

Got to answer some other questions first.

1) What's the intended use?
(Driver schools/lapping days? Autocross? Any sanctioning bodies involved?)

then we discuss:

2) How many points and how to mount?

and only then:

3) Make/model/vendor?

Teaser: the answer to your original question isn't going to be 5, but probably not for the reasons people think.

Neil
05 MCS - Track virgin
96 M3 - Track car

 

This car is a daily commuter - 60K per year.

I've signed up for four LRP events and two Watkins Glen events...more to come, but I just didn't want to lose the opportunity for those events.

I had a four point harness about 20 years ago; two over the shoulder and the typical lap belts all joined at my belt line. That was pretty comfortable, but not too constrictive.

Any advise would be great. I was hanging on to the wheel for support a little too much at LRP last season. A race chair is probably not an option at this point.

Onasled, hanns device, where do you suggest I get one? I resisted writing, these are expensive! $900.00 - $1,500.00. A chunk of change, but better than dead!

Michael

 

If you are going to do a Hans, then do it now as there could possibly be a backorder coming this time of year
Under $900 (Ooops, corrected this )
http://www.driversupply.com/

 

Greg,

What about this device? Thoughts?
SRS-1 Helmet Restraint
The G-Force SRS-1 helmet restraint device consists of a cable that attaches to helmet. This cable attachment allows driver with freedom of movement to turn their head from side to side. The cable is attached to the restraint strap.The restraint strap will have a specific length for each driver and may possibly be different for each racecar the driver uses. The restraint straps are available in half-inch increments and additional restraint straps may be purchase separately. The reaction rod is attached to the other end of the Reflex term strap.
$ 269.99

 

Will this adapt to any G-Force helmet? I have a new G-force.

 

I pretty certain that I have less money then most here. That head restraint was available when I was looking for one myself. I looked at it, though not in person, and never really even considered it. It was Hans all the way for me.
When you listen to people who have had a near death experience, one of the first things that comes out of their mouths is "...I just thought about my children and just knew that I could not leave them without a dad. " Well, that's what I have thought, but before it's too late.

Most here on this section of NAM are fast drivers. Fact is that we could end up in a front end collision in the blink of an eye, and there is nothing that we can do about it. Last year a member of PCA lost his life on his first signed off run. They found his helmet half way off his head, and the collision was not one anyone would think could be fatal. He was a father and a husband.

Just get a good head and neck restraint guys. It should be one of the first mods for track days. Get a Hans, and yes there are a couple of others out there that are about as good.

Greg , father of two, and a cool dog to boot.

 

Short answer: In your position (and I've been in your position) I'd buy a Schroth Quick Fit 4-point harness. See: <http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/store/schroth/competition/profi-III>, scroll down to the Mini version. To my knowledge there's no other 4-point that includes an anti-submarining device, which is essential. This will hold you in place pretty well while driving hard plus provide some extra level of accident protection. The Quit Fit snaps in and out of your car and so doesn't affect everyday use. You could, optionally, route the shoulder straps over a removable harness bar, but it isn't necessary.

Long answer: You can't use a 5-point or a conventional 6-point mount (but see more below) without butchering your standard seat, something you really don't want to do and which may not even work with the Mini - I've never tried. The sub strap(s) must never, ever, be brought around the front of the seat. BTW a properly located single sub-strap/harness doesn't put the family jewels at risk (although it sure feels that way...). The lap webbing shouldn't allow you to slide forward enough for that, even in an accident.

A more aggressive option might be a 6-point using the relatively newly adopted "sit-on" routing for the subs, where they pass under the thighs and back to the same mounting points as the laps. See that on page 25 here: <http://www.hmsmotorsport.com/docs/Competition_Instructions.pdf> (Caution: 4.5BM download.) This is quite effective and doesn't require a hole in your seat. However many organizations, including mine, won't allow use of a 5/6 point harness without a roll bar (discussion for another time). Installing a roll bar in your car severely compromises both its everyday utility and eventual resale value.

It's a personal decision, but I wouldn't wear a HANS for ordinary DE use, for several reasons:
- It requires a suitable harness, so may not be applicable to your options.
- It's only effective for direct frontal plus/minus 45 degree impacts, and as it turns out most impacts don't fall in that range. For more lateral vector protection you need a specially designed and mounted racing seat (and most that are on the market don't qualify at present).
- You're not racing, and in normal DE's you should be driving with enough margin in hand that the risk is substantially reduced. Aren't you? <g>

Don't get me wrong: If I were racing I'd be wearing a HANS. And only a HANS, by the way. I recently attended a conference at which Dr. John Melvin spoke, and had a chance to meet with him afterward. See <http://www.engr.uiuc.edu/alumni/featured_alumnus/?ID=20> if you don't know who he is, then Google his name for more info. According to his analysis of racing accidents and tests of other devices, the HANS is the only one at present that has been shown to work. Partly this is due to their patent coverage, but that doesn't change the fact.

I'm certainly not dismissing safety concerns, but all such decisions involve compromise, which is why we don't drive to work in cars with full roll cages, 6-point harnesses and while wearing helmets. Although there have been times when that's not seemed like a bad idea...

Neil
05 MCS - Track virgin
06 M3 - Track car

 

"Although there have been times when that's not seemed like a bad idea..."

Yes, I would agree Niel...quite definately; when I see folks reading novels or the news paper or eating anything larger than finger sized food - a triple heart attack burger don't qualify - I want to scareeeeeeeeeeem! Just the kind of folk I want to be driving next to...with a helmet!

So the Hanns has some other equipment requirements. I'll check into this. Regarding DE events, I always leave a little in my pocket...I need a way out just so I feel comfortable - 8/10s is just fine for me at this time.


Onasled,

Nice follow-up, thanks There real underlying problem is this is a company car and I cannot install 'stuff' that will draw attention. That said, I think I shall begin to look for a track only beater...wonder if my daughter will defer college for another ten years

 

i couldn't disagree more:

http://www.mini2.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15422

i used to have a picture of a stock auto seat back flattened down from harness belts routed over it's top and back down to the floor, but i can't find it.

 

Again, just check with the club you drive with as some do not allow that Schroth.

 

You weren't completely clear about what it was you were disagreeing with, and the thread you reference covers a lot of ground. But if it's that a harness bar is optional rather than necessary, Schroth tests and certifies their 4-point belts for certain cars, and those cars only. The Mini is on the list. The main criterion is that the seat back must be strong enough to withstand the downward force exerted by the installed angle of shoulder straps in case of accident. The shoulder straps are not, of course, fastened to the floor, but rather to the rear seatbelt points.

I should add that you couldn't of course do this with a racing shell, which typically has little strength in that direction.

From a belt and suspenders point of view I agree that a harness bar is desirable, at least in cars where one is practical to fit. Well, assuming you're confident that the harness bar itself is solid and well designed. I know that Schroth harnesses are well engineered and tested. I don't necessarily know that about somebody's harness bar.

I get to ride in a lot of student cars in the course of the season, and the major problem I find with harnesses is ill thought-out and unsafe installations. One of the things I like about the Schroth Quick Fit 4-point is that the manufacturer has already figured out a proper installation, so all the car owner has to do is be able to read and carry out the instructions.

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3

 

neil,
my disagreement was with the contention that the 45 degree angled down harnesses are satisfactory. (i was aware that they clip into the rear seat belts. that's not really relevant to the issue of their angle over the seat.)

i will gladly concede the point if schroth really has engineering design AND test data to show that a mini seat back is capable of taking the vertical loads developed in a crash with the schroth harness. my guess is that they don't; i suspect that the belts and connectors are rated to take a certain force. i just can't see schroth certifying the mini parts. can you imagine this test? how many seat back angle settings do you need to test? how worn are the angle latches?....ad nauseum.....

if they have tested, then let's see the data. the onus of proof in on he who asserts the positive.

every sanctioning body rule/attach suggestion/design guide i've seen says do not angle the belts more that 5 or 10 degrees below horizontal over a seat back, for good reason.

just because schroth offers them for sale doesn't mean you don't question a design feature that goes against engineering principles. let's see the data.

 

There's nothing "against engineering principles." You have a load, you need load bearing members strong enough to take it. Simple enough.

While a certain amount of skepticism isn't a bad thing, if you're not careful it becomes unproductive. I don't feel a need, for instance, to demand that the manufacturer supply me with their calculations on lug bolt strength so that I can double check and approve them before buying their car.

Schroth is very specific about the cars and seats that they approve for this application. From the factory web site, which I recommend you check out for yourself:
"If your vehicle is listed in the included Vehicle Reference List the installation has been tested and approved [emphasis mine] with the stock seat or the listed aftermarket seats."
Now maybe Schroth is lying through its teeth, but since they're the leading manufacturer of harnesses I kind of doubt it. So I rather think the onus would be on you to demonstrate that, if it's really what you think.

If you disagree, well, have fun with those lug bolt calculations.

As to the sanctioning body rules, well, Schroth literally wrote the book on that one. I gave the link to it in my previous post.

Neil
05 MCS
96 M3