Hi,

I have a 2007 mini cooper s and I read different methods on shifting into 2nd and up. Which one is right for this car?

A. Clutch in, shift, clutch out COMPLETELY, apply gas
B. Clutch in, shift, release clutch AS you apply gas

Two months ago I bought the mini and I already had to replace many clutch components but I have no clue if previous owner or I did the most damage.

P.S. If there's a thread (I would suppose but I couldn't find it) already on discussing why one person would say A while other B, could you post the link?
Thanks.

 

When I learned to drive, (A VERY long time ago), the rule was simple: Move your feet like a duck paddling.

1. Clutch down and gas up, at the same time.
2. Shift.
3. Clutch up and gas down, at the same time. Ease the clutch up slowly through the point where it takes hold.

With practice, you should not feel any jerk or lunge as the clutch takes hold.

Keith
2007 Cooper S.

 

To prolong the life of the clutch I would recommend "A".

 

It's interesting being asked questions like this, to those of us who've used manual transmission cars for...well, a long time.

That shift to second...yes, pretty much "a" as others have said. You don't "bang" the clutch back out, causing jerkiness, nor do you need to "slip" it back out, as you would if leaving from a stop in first. The clutch comes out pretty quickly, and you're applying throttle pretty much at that same point to maintain smooth momentum. It becomes second nature / muscle memory at some point, it will feel/sound "right" to you when done right.

 

Maybe I'm missing something, but wouldn't "A. Clutch in, shift, clutch out COMPLETELY, apply gas" make the car jerk massively? I don't think you should ever release the clutch "completely" before applying gas unless you enjoy slamming your head into the steering wheel repeatedly.

What did take a little time to learn is applying gas before *starting* to release the clutch, as a way of rev-matching. This smooths out the shifts considerably and supposedly reduces clutch wear as well.

 

Duck paddling - very appropriate coming from an Oregonian.
I concure with Keith's technique, but then I am native Oregonian.

 

I do "A", personally. To prolong the clutch life, I try to be on the gas as little as possible while releasing the clutch. If you release the clutch at the right time when the revs drop, and/or rev match for downshifts, it won't jerk. But, overall it is not as smooth as "B" unless executed perfectly. I now have enough clutch control to start out from a stop without feathering the gas at all, but I really don't know if this will prolong the life or not. This is my experience with the JCW clutch, which I find it to be pretty unforgiving.

 

Giving gas to match the engine speed is what it proper. At the same time it is best to have the clutch completely disengaged ASAP. That means that for all practical purposes, you take your foot off immediately, though while doing it you give it gas.

If you give no gas you will feel the car decelerate as the wheels bring the engine to speed through the clutch. Too much gas and you slip the clutch in the opposite direction. A perfect match between engine speed and wheel speed in that gear is smooth as there is no motion (in either direction) the clutch has to equalize.

A couple big no-nos that many folks do.

Best practice is at a stop, put the car in neutral, clutch out.

Otherwise the throwout bearing may fail prematurely. Find any post with one failing and you find a driver that keeps the clutch in at red lights. It isn't guaranteed, so folks can post "I do that with no problem" but it isn't a good habit, so don't learn it.

Second thing you see once and a while on the road is some idiot using the clutch to hold a car on a hill. That's a quick way to meet your local mechanic for a replacement. Put the car in neutral, foot on the brake. When the light turns green, clutch in, find first and go.

If you need help on a bad hill, use the emergency brake with your thumb on the release button. Hold the car with e-brake until RPM drops as you slowly find the clutch engage point and drive away normally as you let off the hand brake. This way all the back roll drama is past you once the clutch is starting to hit the flywheel. Really just a tiny bit more RPM is needed on a bad hill, but often the panic sets in and folks overrev by a huge amount. Find a hill and practice a bit, then don't even worry about anyone behind you, it is mostly in the head.

So, goal is clutch out ASAP, but best practice is to learn to give a bit of gas as you immediately release the clutch fully. Also when I say to give it gas I am talking about to move forward, not full acceleration. Full acceleration is only after the clutch is totally disengaged.

From a dead stop, especially on a downhill start, hardly any gas is needed. You can just about instantly let off the clutch and the idle speed will be enough to keep you moving down a hill. That shows you how little gas is really needed. I think it is way better to stall a few times learning where the low end of needed power is, than to get in the habit of giving way more gas than needed and have the clutch work hard at every start you do for your entire driving career.

 

Great post! Just one comment on the last paragraph. You actually don't need the throttle at all to get moving, be it downhill, flat ground, or incline. If you can modulate pressure on the clutch pedal carefully enough, you can get moving without the gas pedal. Let the pedal come up slowly, keeping control, and when you find the "friction point," keep it there until the car creeps forward. Don't pop it now, keep coming up slowly. Once you're rolling and the clutch pedal is all the way up, give it gas. I was taught to do this on a steep incline side street, onto a busy thoroughfare (thanks, driving instructor.)

I hated him at the time, but it taught me a lot about clutch control.

 

A is the best choice but B is fine as long as you are not revving the engine and then engaging the clutch. Most of the wear on a clutch will come from not removing your foot from the clutch completely between shifts as this "riding the clutch" will certainly cause premature wear.

 

You could also locate your local MINI club or SCCA chapter and get a little one on one from some really great guys. Woops, or gals.

 

I can't believe the number of votes for A. That's a very bad style, you'll be jerking all over the place. Giving it some gas as you release the is the right way to do it. As noted, if you get it right there should be no perceptible change as the clutch engages. If you notice the clutch coming out, your not doing it right.

 

Anytime the clutch pedal is not completely in or completely out, the clutch is slipping which causes wear.

 

I do either way, depending on rate of acceleration. If I'm driving normally, I up shift low in the rev range, so A is ok with no jerking. Torque is sufficient to go from 1st @ about 2k, go to 2nd & release the clutch then give some gas.

When I'm motoring, of course I up shift high on the rev range. This time, with the short gears being so close to each other, you have to give it enough gas while you release the clutch so that the rpm is at the right spot for the next higher gear when the clutch engages. NO jerk until you floor the throttle, with the clutch engaged fully of course.

 

Do a mix of both when shifting. As long as you don't hear the engine's RPM rise during the shift, you should be fine. If you do hear the engine RPM rise, either release the clutch quicker, press the accelerator later, or use less gas. You need the slightest bit of gas when shifting to make it smooth, but the clutch release should be fairly quick.

 

Well, the answer is both A and B. Depending on what kind of car you are driving.

I've found that with the Mini, you don't need to "slip" the clutch as much as with many other cars I've owned (especially in sport mode where the throttle is alot more touchy). It's all about finding the sweet spot where you can have a short, smooth shift.

 

But it won't jerk all over the place if you shift at the correct RPM; that's what we are saying. When upshifting, once you push the clutch in, you can watch the tach drop. Now, if you let out the clutch right where the RPM's are supposed to be, where they will be once you complete the shift, it will be smooth. Dido with downshifting, but you'll have to revmatch to get your RPM's up to match the tranny.

 

 

Thanks, guys. So, I take it shifting with method B is fine and will still give me long miles on my clutch. This is what I've been doing doing, albeit probably imperfectly because it's been only two months for me driving stick full time (and love it!). But if the clutch fails again within 2 years, I'm going back to auto :( whether it's my fault or something to do with the car.

Anyway attached is some, not all, pictures of my old clutch parts that have to be replaced and cost me $3,500. The clutch is now smooth and light; it was never like that when I bought the car so it was probably already messed up. Here's the note in repair order.

 

OK, so let me really break it down how I shift up just to make sure.

1. Clutch in
2. Shift
3. Release clutch half way really quickly, no gas yet
4. Apply gas, and possibly releasing clutch more slowly
5. Release clutch completely while applying more gas

So the clutch stays half engaged/disengaged for one second or two total for step 3 and 4. I's not like pedaling a bike or duck paddling--the leg on the clutch will move first before the leg on the accelerator. Is this wrong and I need to initiate both legs at the same time?

 

In the case of your car, shifting from 1 to 2, what RPM when you clutch in and what RPM when you clutch out? And are these precise RPMs or do they allow some margin of errors?

 

Definitely agree with muzak...

I pretty much dump the clutch when I shift. I engage it very rapidly, but I do so as the revs fall down and I catch it with the next gear, if that makes sense. After driving stick for long enough and getting used to a car you can do it without feeling the shift whatsoever. Fast engagement at the proper time reduces the time the clutch is actually slipping.

Then, heel-toe downshifts allow you to do the opposite while reducing workload on the clutch.

 

It's about a 1k RPM difference from wherever you are, if my memory serves me. Let it drop a K for upshifting, rev it up a K for downshifting -- or rev it up just passed where it needs to be and catch it on the way down. You'll know when you get it right. Eventually you get the muscle memory down or go by the sound of the engine/exhaust. I've found it smoother by shifting from 1st to 2nd earlier than usual, or stretching it a little longer into the rev. Otherwise, it is a little jerky. There's not a lot of margin for error; that's what I meant when I said the JCW clutch is unforgiving. Not sure about the S R56. Getting close is better than nothing and you'll get it down to where it becomes 2nd nature quicker than you'd think.

 

When I had my Toyota stick I always released the clutch and applied the gas evenly at the same time. It's worth adding that I was driving a pick up at the time so if I did option "A" my truck would shake violently. I guess it's also worth adding that pretty much no matter what I was doing my truck would shake violently. I really don't have much else to add beyond that, my MINI is an auto. There are a lot of worse things you can do to wear out a clutch.

 

Driving a manual for me is more about shifting a the right time than it is about fancy foot work. Normal easy driving around town/to work I just accelerate at a moderate pace, when the rpms get to the right spot, clutch in just about as fast as my leg can move, while moving the shifter at the same time (when shifting at the right time the clutch isnt really doing much), when the shifter bottoms out and stops, my foot snaps back releasing the clutch and giving it the same amount of throttle as before the shift. No jerking or lurching, its all just on feel and learnig when to shift for how you are driving, it will come in time.

For driving hard around turns and what not I tend to slip the clutch a little more to ensure I dont break the tires free by giving it to much throttle and fast clutch release in a turn.

Now Down shifting gets tricky, that takes some smooth foot work and getting used to, learn to accelerate and shift up smoothly, and then learn to play with rev matching. Doing both at the same time can get overwhelming.

Clutch damage is going to occur primarily more if you heat the clutch up, i.e. idle with your left foot depressing it/start in first revving to high and slipping the clutch for to long. Or downshifting and releasing the clutch with large engine,transmission rpm difference. By bleeding in some throttle or a split second of slipping the clutch while shifting really shouldnt shorten the clutch life that dramatically unless you have a defective clutch.