I have a 2011 MCS and have done some HPDE's. I intend to track my mini more and have questions about the brakes. I want to upgrade them, as this seems to be a safety issue, and I want to make sure that the brakes are okay for track (and street) use. I haven't had any issues yet (I find that the MINI carries speed well through the corners, and I don't need to brake that much), but I like the idea of a margin of safety, and I suspect that as I get better, I will be more aggressive and need better brakes.

I am going to install braided brake lines, and change the fluid to something with a higher boiling point. I also am wondering if the OEM pads need to be upgraded.

I have been looking at Carbotech XP8, Ferodo DS2500, and Stoptech street performance. I understand that track pads are noisy/ dusty for the street, and that street pads are not going to tolerate a lot of heat on the track. But has anybody found a reasonable compromise for mostly street use, with the occasional track use.

I don't care about dust, noise is a bit of a problem if everybody is going to stare every time I slow down for a red light. I want a pad that can handle a bit of heat but be okay for a daily driver. Anybody with experience care to comment?

Thanks.

 

I have put Hawk HPS on my wife's Mini that I track. They have more power in stopping than OE and take heat well. Good for daily and track. Eventually, I'll replace the calipers and pads with WilWood (most likely).

 

Lots of opinions and options, I will offer a couple.

I have used stock MINI pads, Carbotech XP10 on the front and XP8 on the rear and EBC Reds for track days and for daily driving.

I use MINI branded brake fluid changed every spring before track day season. I do believe if your really a hot driver (aggressive) you probably want to upgrade to a higher temp. brake fluid.

I have tried the Hawk HPS pads with new DBA 4000 slotted rotors, I hated the HPS pads and they did not give me the braking action I wanted, I changed out to EBC Red in the front for aggressive mountain driving and our track days.

I loved the CT XP10 on the front, but not for a daily driver, I did keep the XP8 on the rear for daily driving with CT 1561s, but I prefer the EBC Reds.

If you don't mind changing pads for track days, the CTs really work, I don't have a lift and really don't like changing pads, I stick with the EBCs.

It all depends on what you like in braking feel and modulation.

Don

 

Cooling will help just about any brakes to last longer on the track. That is usually the next step after switching to a high-temp brake fluid and good pads. Ducting air from the front of the car somewhere to the rotors will help keep things from overheating.

IMHO the stainless-braided brake lines are unneeded. They can help the pedal feel a little firmer, but that's really all they do.

 

Love my EBC Red Stuff pads. They stop well and are almost dustless. No sqeeks either.

 

^^^Second the EBC redstuff.

 

Thanks for the input, everybody.

How are the EBC Reds on the street? noisy? good heat resistance on the track?

Slave to Felines: have you ducted your brakes? how do you do it on an R56?

 

I’d like to make a suggestion...

I run Carbotechs Ceramic street pads on the street and XP12/XP10’s at the track. Depending on your experience and aggressiveness, XP 10/XP8’s will work fine. (the faster you go, the more braking you need)

Anyway, the reason I run the street ceramics is because in order to run any of the XP’s at the track, you have to prep the rotors before you install the pads. If you run Carbotech ceramic street pads, you can just swap them out when it comes to the track with no prepping of the rotors. (much easier, less work)

Just a suggestion.


Mark

 

Mark makes a good point that swapping pads, while common for street/track, can lead to issues. Speak with both suppliers to get a feel for compatibility between compounds. Depending upon the type of pad and the transfer layer they put down other pads may not like it and be quite ineffective.



Hmmm I see another suggestion:

 

I’ve been quite happy with the stock JCW brakes but I realllly like those.... perhaps it’s the color. Does Wilwood make rear calipers also?


Mark

 

Wilwood makes all kinds of calipers of pretty much every kind. I'm not sure they have a direct replacement for the MINI that has a built-in mechanical parking brake, though.

I know some who have addressed that on other cars by using a dedicated mechanical parking brake caliper on the rear wheels in addition to the regular hydraulic one.

 

Thanks for the input. A few questions:

Slave to Felines: you mention ducting for cooling. Have you modded your car to do this? any pics? advice on how to do this? And do the 2011's have some sort of brake ducting from the factory?

Everybody: have you had problems with brakes overheating or the brake fluid? I'm planning on changing my brake fluid, but I've never had a problem with my pads getting hot (as far as I know). I have an episode where the brake pedal started feeling soft, so I let things cool, and they got better. So I'm thinking that I need fluid with a higher boiling point. But I'm also wondering where the problems with a stock brake setup at the track really are: pads or fluid. or anything I've overlooked.

 

Orange crush is right about the carbotech street to race brake compounds. It makes it much easier to change between the 2 pad sets. For most people the XP10 front and XP8 rear will work great. Until you are on R rubber you cant get the heat into the pad to over work the 10s. But you will need cooling on short hard braking tracks where the brakes dont have alot of time to cool. You need to change your fluid to something track rated, we use Amsoil 600 on everything from street to race cars but Super blue is also very popular but the wet boiling point is lower 396 vs 410. On brake fluid the temp number to look at is the wet boiling point not the dry. Dry is always much higher (Amsoil 580 dry to 410 wet/ Super blue 536 to 396) but as soon as the fluid goes in the car its exposed to air and therefore wet. You want a brake fluid with wet boiling over 350F min and change it min of every 3 track weekends or 3 months if your going to the track.

 

Buy the Wilwood BBK for the track with 12.2" rotor. I used these for HPDE and know a number of people who also have them. They are fantastic. The 12.2" rotor is basically the same size as the JCW BBK with a lot less unsprung weight as compared to the stock. Not only that, they are simple to change pads on; pull a pin, pull the street pads, insert the track pads, put the pin back in. 2 minutes a wheel. Todd as some really good Wilwood track and street pads. The Carbotech XP10s front and 8s rears are another good set up, with the ceramic pads for the street.

If you are going to stick with the stock brakes, and these are plenty for most HPDEs, the XP10/8 setup is usable on the street with a little bit of noise. Just be carefull to watch the wear on the pads and bring an extra set to the track with you. These are harder to change the pads on and to see the pads for wear, so just take some care. Also, watch the rubber piston boots on the calipers. When the pads wear, the rubber boot will easily overheat, melt and need replacing.

Take the dust shields off. This will allow cooling to the brakes. Then go from there. The JCW Areo kit brake ducts are an option if you think you need more. I found that the HPDE session were not long enough to develop fade in the brakes. But I also know some drivers went for additional cooling.

A few don't (in my book):
- don't use the HPS on the track...my experience is they will get over heated by the second session of the day, glase over and become ineffective. The HP+ are ok.
- don't use the Carbotech AX6 pads on the track...these are autocross only pads and will give you real problems on the track.
- don't use the yellow stuff pads on the track...same problem as the HPS
- don't use cross-drilled rotors. These will crack and I had the holes fill with brake dust which caused the brakes to shutter.

 

The 2011/12 stock S front has a form of brake duct cooling. Which should be good until you go to R-comps.

More than likely, the "soft" feeling was not the fluid. If the fluid gets overheated and boils, the pedal will go down to the floor and you will have no brakes. The way I understand it, there is no in between with the fluid. That is why I would think it was not a fluid issue. I got that "soft" feeling with the wrong brake pads. A performance street pad, like the HPS or yellow stuff will get overheated which will give a "soft" feel. Brakes will get to 1000 deg+ (I saw 1100 deg +). So a good race/track pad is a must. I have never had problems with good brake fluid or the Mini fluid, but then again, I change it before each event. As I said, if the fluid is "bad" you will loose the brakes and that will definately get your attention when braking at 120 mph into a 60 mph corner.

 

I have to say that I’ve been running the stock brake fluid for the last two years. I have never felt any brake fade and most of the tracks I urn at are short hard braking tracks that are really hard on the brakes.

The JCW brake pads are great pads but aren’t designed for track use. Sure, you may get a weekend out of them but they simply aren’t made for the track.

Also, as Eddie said, DO NOT USE CROSS DRILLED OR SLOTTED rotors on the track. They may work great on the street but as Eddie said, they’ll get clogged up and wear your pads down even faster.

The one good thing for those just starting to track your Mini. If you have JCW brakes and pads and the car is under warranty, you can go track the car and keep getting pads and rotors replaced.

My .02 worth....


Mark

 

 

PM sent...

 

Mark,
I used slotted Wilwoods, and had no problems. Their rotors have directional vanes which is supposed to help with cooling. I did talk to Todd about getting plain face rotors when mine wore out...but that has been postponed as I have had to start over with the new car, new brakes, etc . Quite frankly, I saw no difference or benefit with the slotted, so if not needed, get the plain as they are generally cheaper.

It was the cross drilled that were a really bad problem for me. In both application I was using Carbotech XP 10 pads. They didn't work on the cross drilled but worked fine with the slotted and plain rotors, the latter be stock.

 

I don’t remember which ones I had on my last mini with JCW brakes but the rotors ate the hell out of the brakes.

Again, I believe it depends on how hard you push it and the type of track you go to. I’m not saying I push it any harder than anyone else, it’s just the tracks I frequent are hard braking tracks and aren’t generally long enough to stay off the brakes to let them cool.

Anyway, just an opinion....


Mark

 

Has anyone removed front dust shields for additional cooling but not routed any ducting? Not sure if just removing will make a big different on its own, also if there are any downsides to daily driving like that (rain exposure for example).

I overcooked a set of EBC Yellows at a track night (Pitt Race full course), planning on upgrading to Carbotech XP10 (Front) and XP8 (Rear) for the next one, along dedicated fresh rotors. Keeping the old rotors to run with a set of EBC reds I already have for daily driving the rest of the year/colder months.

Was also considering one of the brake ducting kits (kit that zipties to the lower control arm... don't want to get into removing fog lights and modifying the bumper). A little pricey though, and will probably require removing the ducts after track use for clearance.

I'm actually running an R53 (JCW) not R56 but this thread was one of the better I've found touching on these issues, and R53 front brakes are same as R56.

 

Removing the backing plates will help cooling but not a lot. There is no downside to daily driving without backing plates unless your driving on lots of gravel and dirt roads.

The Carbotechs will take a lot more heat than the EBC yellows but as you pick up speed you'll need a real brake cooler kit.

The R53 and R56 have different size rotors and calipers, they can be interchanged but they are not the same.

 

Thanks sneed, will PM you about some items... What I meant to reference regarding my brakes are that the R53 JCW front rotors are the same size as what became standard on R56, so having the JCW package I do have a bit more front brake than a plain R53 S.

 

Oh yes, that correct the R53 JCW became the R56 S brakes

 

The R56 brakes are pretty good and removing the dust shields will help to get air to the openings for the rotor vanes. While not as good as ducts, every little bit helps. A hint - the screws holding the dust shields at torx and are put on really tight. I put a torx driver in each screw and gave it a good wack with a hammer to loosen them. After I took the shields off I put the screws back in with a heavy coating of never seize.

Note, as good as your brakes are, those cast steel calipers will suck up heat over time and will get a little soft. Having new pads will help insulate them. And make sure that you have high quality and fresh brake fluid in the system.

I have heard that there are titanium heat shields for these brakes which will also help. These go between the pad and the piston. Sorry I don't have any details, though.

You will find the Carbotechs to be amazing

Have fun and let us know how it works for you.