With 47,000 miles on my Clubman, I just made my third trip to the dealership with a code and rough firing motor. Carbon deposits removed, and computer reset ..... same old action on their part for the same old problem.

Got the same, age old, explanation .... bad gas, but what else do you do, but use 93 octane premium name gasoline. Ethanol is everywhere.

I love the car, but the reliability issue for this brand of automobile remains a huge problem.

Are any of you having this recurring problem, or am I the only one?

 

There's a thread about this, with some real good information.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...-cylnders.html

Dave

 

Is that on an S or a Justa?

 

The answer to two questions ......
1) It is an "S' model
2)I have heard about the Sea Foam treatment and valve modification.

I have a question myself .....
1) Why hasn't BMW/Mini gotten their act together and fixed this problem instead of leaving it in the lap of owners? We should not have to be responsible for taking care of their design problem.

My response to everyone that asks me how I like the Clubman is that I love the car, but the reliability and company support sucks. I advise that they not buy a Mini if they are looking for reliability.

 

buckbs

It is not BMW/MINI that designed the engine wrong, it is a flaw in the over all design of the Direct Injected Engine. All manufacturers that use this type of design have this problem.

Read thru the thread that was posted in one of the posts above, especially the ones by Dr Obnoxious. He explains the problem very well,

Unfortunately with the DI design it takes more maintenance to keep the carbon build up off the valve and intakes.

Please do not bash MINI for this, many manufacturers are dealing with this same issue.

 

Schatzy,

I think that it is short sighted for Mini to not take care of this problem after the 50,000 mile warranty expires since it is a manufacturing design fault. And I'm not blaming Mini exclusively.

I would not buy a European designed direct injection auto the next time that I buy an automobile although I prefer their autos over US brands.

You are a mechanic at heart and do not mind working on your own auto. Most of us are not, and we do not relish having to pay for maintenance on a problem that is not of our own chosing.

It's a matter of economics, not just placing random blame on my part.

 

It is NOT a design FAULT, It is a difference that no one has yet to come up with an answer that you like. The real answer is that it takes more maintenance. I understand that may not be your thing but any good shop can easily rectify that for you.

It is not just MINI/BMW or European situation, the DI engines of all manufacturers all around the world are dealing with this.

Actually I am not a mechanic at heart. And I, like you, would rather not work on the mechanical's of the engine and drive train, and in fact I do not and will not do so, I will have others do it for me.

Yes it is a matter of economics but it is the same for any car you purchase. All car manufacturers tell you up front what the warranty is.

No where did I say anything to blame you nor did I insinuate that it was blame on your part.

Yes MINI can do something about this but it is not necessarily their responsibility after the warranty to service or fix a perceived problem.

And MINI could go to a non DI engine in the S but is not what they have done nor is it what they are expected to do.

 

I wonder why a few people are having so much trouble with this and the rest of us aren't?

 

Are the cars having a carbon build up problem using regular dino oil instead of synthetic?

Synthetic oil burns at a much higher temperature than regular oil, maybe synthetic oil doesn't burn on the backs of the valves, leaving a deposit, like standard oil does.

There is a sticker on the engine of my 2010 MCCS that says to use synthetic oil.

Just a thought.

Dave

 

Many people have this problem, Dave. It seems to happen at mileages above 40k or so, if no regular maintenance is done to alleviate the problem. And like Schatzy said, it's a simple design flaw of the DI engine design, which no company seems to be able to get around.

 

I don't have a personal vendetta against you or Mini, but I do have the unique, old fashioned idea that anyone should back up their product with either unlimited service repair past the 50,000 mile initial warranty or redesign the product so that the customer does not have major problems or expense during the time that they possess said product. It violates the principles that I have in someone knowingly selling a product that they are aware as being defective.

I was proactive enough to buy the 100,000 mile warranty contract, so I do not have to face added expenditures. What I do have a problem with is knowing that I may be in the boondocks many miles away from a Mini dealership and this happen, causing me all kinds of problems, possibly stranded on the road.

Maybe it's just me, but I have a gut feeling about what is right and what is wrong in selling a product that the manufacturer knows will cause the customer problems. The automobile manufacturers DO HAVE THE ENGINEERING EXPERTISE TO SOLVE THIS, BUT IT MIGHT COST THEM TIME AND MONEY.

 

First off you need to understand that a DI engine is not a defective product and until you realize that, the problem is with your understanding (NOW I am saying your thinking is flawed In My Humble Opinion).

And BTW there is not a court in this land or any other that would side with you on this one as the product is "not" defective. It just works differently than what "you" are used to. There is just another maintenance routine that needs to be done.

If manufacturers were to do as you say then no one would be able to buy anything as the product would cost so much that no one could afford it. BTW this is why there are limited warranties.

And another flaw in your thinking is the cost factor. Seafoam from Walmart is $7.98 at my local store and 10 minutes of my time to use it is not and never will be considered a major problem or expense.

That is to bad as the "carbon build up" issue probably will not be covered by the extended warranty. Infact some dealers charge people even under the normal warranty to decarbonize their engine.

Now with this yelling statement you are showing In My Humble Opinion that you really do not know how the system works. And if you read below you will have a much better understanding of what is going on.

And if you really think that this is a "major problem" the I would suggest that you trade your MINI in for something else. Just when you do make sure to do your homework and find a car that does not have Direct Injection.

 

By "maintenance," what are we talking here...? A regular trip back to the dealer for removal of carbon deposits from the injectors, or some kind of off-the-shelf injector treatment every so often...?

More fuel for the fire (pardon the pun):

I don't have it in front of me at the moment, so I could be mistaken, but I don't recall the owner's manual addressing any ongoing service requirements associated with direct injection engines -- specifically, the increased importance of keeping the injectors clean to avoid rough-running issues. So unless someone is "plugged in" to forums such as these, or has some kind of technical/mechanical background, they aren't likely to know about these "additional" maintenance requirements that direct injection engines (versus carbureted or port fuel injection engines) have. This will lead to a perception (perhaps an unfair one) on the part of owners that the "finicky" behavior exhibited by a direct injection engine is a problem (i.e., they are unreliable, etc.) rather than an expected design characteristic (and as such, just part of the "joys" of ownership...).

As "buckbs" pointed out, the gas that's available wherever one lives is all one can use in these (or any) car; it's not like anyone can get better gasoline than what's sold at their local Top Tier stations. And E5/E10 are more commonplace (even in premium grades) here in the States than perhaps MINI/BMW would prefer for their engines. But for MINI/BMW corporate to have their dealers continuously cite "bad gas" as the culprit in these cases is a bit obtuse in my opinion. The owner's manual specifies premium fuel, and I'm willing to bet that most folks follow that "directive" from MINI/BMW. But if the engine, by design, requires closer and more frequent injector maintenance, that's what dealers/service associates should be telling owners... It may not be what owners want to hear, or what MINI/BMW likes from the standpoint of their vehicle maintenance schedules that come at no charge for 3 years, but deflecting the issue with accusations of "bad gas" (while easier to do, and seemingly absolves MINI/BMW of "blame/responsibility") does not solve the problem, and only frustrates and infuriates owners who are dealing with what they genuinely perceive (again, fairly or unfairly) as a problem -- because they feel like MINI/BMW is tossing the issue back at them when it's clear that the vehicle isn't running properly for some reason... The "bad gas" charge just doesn't float with people, whether they're "gear heads" or not, because it's fair for everyone who buys a MINI to assume that it's capable of accepting whatever gasoline is commonly available within the market into which the vehicle has been introduced.

My point is if MINI/BMW would take to educating their customers about the so-called "design quirks" of these otherwise good engines, rather than just using "bad gas" as a convenient scapegoat, I think they'd have much better luck in dealing with the issue...

 

I agree with timfitz in that I have never seen the "seafoam product" mentioned anywhere in the Mini handbook, nor have I seen Mini recommend any valve maintenance measures anywhere in the owner's manual. Seafoam has never been mentioned to me by any Mini service personnel during the nearly 50,000 miles that I have put on the car and I have maintained it to perfection as prescribed by Mini ..... period.

Schatzy can alibi for Mini until the cows come home, but the company has simply ignored a known problem saying nothing in their maintenance criteria to take care of this problem and continuing to talk "bad gas" as being the problem when they know that the brand or quality of gas has nothing to do with what is happening.

Schatzy says, "First off you need to understand that a DI engine is not a defective product and until you realize that, the problem is with your understanding (NOW I am saying your thinking is flawed In My Humble Opinion)". So it's my fault for not understanding and educating myself to do separate maintenance and use a non-recommended product that Mini says nothing about nor makes any recommendations about to keep the car that I bought from them in good faith running correctly.

In my humble opinion, your thinking is flawed to think that this problem should be borne by and corrected by the owner who bought this product in good faith with no backup nor warning coming from Mini about this problem that so many of us are now facing.

 

Buckbs makes a very good point. While it may be necessary to do this maintenance on the MINI engine due to the DI design, the customer should positively without a doubt be notified about this from the very beginning, especially since it appears that it IS very necessary to do it. I would guess that the majority of people who buy cars are non-mechanical and don't do this kind of research (why should they need to?) -- MINI should be sure that people know about this and what they need to do/can expect to have done to keep the engine clean and healthy, without using the bad gas excuse.

 

Thanks to Headlands and Timfitz63 for agreeing with my point of view.

I appreciate your candor and honesty, just like I have been in my viewpoint on this issue.

The customer has not been treated optimally with this problem.

buckbs

 

Stepping into the conversation for a moment. As a Land Rover owner I know that the 1994 - 2004 (haven't heard about newer ones yet) had an issue with carbon for the DI issue. But we also noticed a trend on how the vehicle was driven. We found that if the Rover was driven mostly around town with out much hard driving (drive it like you stole it), then the vehicle was more than likely going to have carbon issues. Of course this is with a 1960 Buick 215ci engine that was converted to DI by Rover. I have 153k miles on my 1997 Land Rover and personally have never had an issue with Carbon, but when I bought my Rover used the first thing I did was a seafoam treatment (agreed not mentioned in any manual, but I read about it in the forums), but I have not done so since. In 8 years of ownership of my Land Rover, I lived 6 years in WV with less than nice roads and lots of hills so my Rover got a work out. Sadly it is now just an off road toy and winter driving vehicle as I do not want to spend that much if fuel costs.

I do agree with Buckbs for the fact that it is not mentioned anywhere by Mini or any other manufacture for that matter about preventive maintenance involved with DI, but I also know that sadly vehicles are built to fail. Take my 2003 Jaguar that I traded in on my Mini, it had a "Sealed, maintenance free Transmission" i.e. it would fail around 100k miles or so if you do as the manufacture suggested, but a transmission service is not recommended by the dealership. Of course if you planned to keep the car you better change the fluid ever 30k miles or so. I didn't buy it till in had 65+k miles, changed the fluid at 70ishk miles yet sadly at 103k miles I felt transmission issues starting to come up.

Basically what I am saying is sometimes you have to read between the lines on what a manufacture recommends and what you may have to do to keep a vehicle happy and running. The Catch can for the PVC is one that IMHO should be done from the factory, yet it isn't because they manufacture knows if they added this it would require someone to open to hood and check to make sure it wasn't full.

Not all Vehicle owners check fluids on a regular basis. I know sadly if anything happened to me, my wife would only know something is wrong with one of our vehicles if the Engine Light or Low something light came on, and then she may or may not know what it means other than to stop driving (thank God for that) and call someone.

 

It's true that sometimes we have to read between the lines, and also that some vehicles are built to fail in one way or another (I'm not saying that MINIs are for sure, but it wouldn't surprise me in the least). But when one is used to (like I am) cars like an Outback or a Civic that last and last and last without any kind of worry and then you're faced with a car like a MINI that is not necessarily like this, there is no reason for one to think that anything other than picking the car up at the dealer and driving it for close to 200,000 miles with anything other than very simple maintenance (mostly at the dealer and oil changes, etc.) is necessary.

Having a car like a MINI which requires more is fine, but it's important for the dealer and manufacturer to make this clear to the buyer, which is not the case here. It would show that the manufacturer is solid. Like Schatzy said, the DI engine simply requires more care; I don't think anyone is arguing this at the point we're at now with this discussion. What some are arguing is that MINI should not be blaming this on something like bad gas and should be up front with the consumer about what is required with a car like this; I would personally still have bought the car, but obviously this would mean less sales overall for MINI (which is marketed primarily as a cute little car -- in L.A. the majority of people I see driving it are girls on their cell phone), which is not what any corporation wants (a fact that I understand, as well).

 

As far as blaming bad gas.... I agree this is a sad cop-out for any Maintenance department. Claiming bad gas if the fuel filter or injectors are clogged would be a different story.

 

MINI Cooper S Wins Engine of the Year


http://www.motoringfile.com/2010/06/...e-of-the-year/

 

And what does that have to do with this specific conversation? Yes, it's a great engine as far as performance and economy -- no one is saying otherwise, and that's a big reason why most of us bought the car.

 

I agree with Headland ..... great performance and great economy. I think that the car is fantastic when it is running correctly .... love it.

I'm just disappointed in Mini not being up front with using Seafoam in it's owner's manual and being honest about the carbon buildup to begin with.

The problem has nothing to do with gas, and Mini should be up front with all the current information that they have concerning the carbon buildup problem. Not being honest from the start might reduce sales, but it would certainly build up owner loyalty to the company on the part of present owners.

 

It's the fibromyalgia of the automotive world.

 

I'm not sure MINI (the MFR) recommends Seafoam treatments, rather I think it's a stopgap the dealers came up with in an effort to appease some of their customers and the forum community has embraced. I'm not convinced it does a thing for these engines, other's experience the contrary notwithstanding. Rather, I think it has as much or more to do with how the car is driven as someone else mentioned with their Land Rovers.

Likewise, despite the number of people complaining here, I think the actual number of people having trouble with their cars is quite small. That doesn't make those who are having problems feel any better, I'm sure, but it may shed some light on why MINI (the MFR) is not all that concerned about it.

I still haven't been able to get a definitive answer on whether those who drive their cars hard periodically have a smaller or even complete lack of this issue vs. those who piddle around town all the time.

Back in the mid 90's and early "oughties", VW/Audi was having a terrible time with cars carboning up their intake valves - their solution was to remove the intake manifold and blast the valves with walnut shells to clean them off. What ever happened to that problem? It just sorta went away as those cars aged and were replaced and wasn't a problem with their successors as far as I know. Things like this crop up from time to time I guess, but I owned Audi's during this time and never experienced those problems. Why? I do not drive it like I stole it, but my driving does contain a high percentage of highway miles, much like the OP's must to have 50K on it in three years.

I don't know what's going on here, but I have a feeling it will just fade away over time, much the same way Audi's intake valve carboning problem did. BTW, those engines were port injected, not DI, so the "wash effect" of the gas Dr. O mentions would have been there in those engines.

 

I would be wiling to bet that if you talked to Way of Way Motorworks or Dan of Grassroots Garage, and they would tell you that cars that drive around the city and rarely go above 3000 RPM have this problem much more than cars that are regularly driven more spiritedly with RPMs that get up to 4500-5000.

I say this as that is what both of them told me while at MINI's On The Dragon this past spring.

As for MINI not being forthright or telling its customers that the car needs extra maintenance because of the design of the engine. I personally don't think that is a requirement not a lack of being honest.

Where MINI really falls down on being honest is with the Oil Change interval. 22k is just way to long. And in my opinion and thru research the long oil change interval may have something to do with the carbon build up issue as well as the oil breaks down beyond being useful.