https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...008#post527008

Lively debate. Post #13 has a link to the various moments that you need to do the math yourself. It's back of the envelope type stuff. (at least, if you spent all your date years in grad school!)

Matt

Wow, that's amazing. And counter-intuitive, because I've felt the effect of changing rim size/weight, and it's not insignificant.

So your theory is, rather than a rotational mass effect, it's more the effect of additional unsprung weight impeding on the ability of the tires to maintain good contact?

And I've done the math to prove it!

FWIW, there's a free driver simulation game called Racer, billed as the best, physiscs based car simulation game out there (google around for it, it's free and a blast, but the modern stuff blows it away). There are links to modeling tire contact patches and the like, but I haven't gone too deep.

Now, in the models I did there are some assumptions, but they won't change the outcome by more than a factor of 2 or so on 0-60 times, and the between 1 and 2 times benefit for reduced rotational mass is true, no doubt at all....

Matt

Okay, Dr. Science, I believe you. I'm still going to stick with the larger/heavier rims bad, smaller/lighter rims good, though. Maybe I don't know why; but I'm married, so I've stopped asking why.

here's the entire article in b&w...http://www.wraight.com/MINI/Comparo.pdf ~4MB

A lot of the GTI advantage was subjective, i.e. a nicer interior on the GTI and the DSG -- wonder how the new "auto" MINI would compare.

Another thing that's very subjective is VW's extremely poor reliability ratings in the past few years, I also got the new Consumer Reports which corroborates this, note that MINI has finally made it out of CR's "sh*t list" and is on their recommended list in many spots.

The GTI's new styling doesn't do as much for me. But I was surprised they were evenly matched in the slalom, I recall in the "early days" that there wasn't much out there that could match the MINI in the slalom save for a Lambo or exoticar.

So the Mini came in last..............

The R&T editors stated:

"the Mini is a hoot that many hard-core enthusiasts would still give the nod over the other two..."

"The Cooper S still feels like it pulls marginally harder than the GTI........."

"Move to Spring Mountain Motorsports Ranch's 1.5 mile West Loop, however, and the Mini suddenly comes into its own. This is where the chassis shines, producing the biggest grins and the fastest lap times of the day."

Fact is that the Eds sang its praises as the true sporting car of the trio. Not bad for a iron lump of a block and a single cam. The Mini came into this test 5 years behind the tech curve of the Honda and the VW and still more than held its own.

I can live with the fact that the bloated/ugly GTI and the torque deprived Honda have more creature comforts and are a better commuter cars.

The object of the test was to pick the best all-around car (not the best track car) - and it seems like they did. The Eds stated what we all have known for years: the Mini is a true enthusiasts car with a lot of little quirks that the average person may not be able to deal with.

I can live with that.

Two weeks ago I test drove both the Elise and the Cayman. I'm sure that the car mags would rate the Cayman much higher based on its fit and finish and creature comforts.........

I'll take the Elise anyday, and I'll take the MCS any day.

Amen to that.

Yeah:

Civic: 14.6:1
MCS: 13.4:1
GTI: 16.1:1

They called the MINI "twitchy" and said "While a blast to throw around at anything above seven-tenths, for more pedestrian everyday use, the Mini's short wheelbase and quick steering can make it a bit darty as a daily driver."

The MINI, by the way, lost out to second place in the price independant ranking by the narrowest of margins:

Civic: 372.7
MCS: 372.5
GTI: 386.4

One editor, Mike Moticello, picked the MCS as his favorite.

Mark

All I can say is "Ouch!"

Matt

i can only say one thing. the MINI will ALWAYS win... by a MMMMILLION!

I'd trade mine for an F360 in a HEARTBEAT, even less!

Matt

....and that's us! (Some of us anyway)

I love my MINI, and it's very similar to the one tested in the magazine, but I wouldn't advise anyone who isn't a hardcore performance person to get one. Can you imagine the way a typical suburbanite would feel when they hit the first set of rough railroad tracks??!??

Muffy: Biff, I just spilled my triple mega-latte on my Shih-Tzu... Snookums is so upset. You're getting rid of this ridiculous thing TOMORROW and we're getting another Lexus [Camry, Accord, or some other boring POS]!!!!!

Biff: Yes dear.

Great as they are, they aren't a good match for everyone.

If I ever hit the Lotto, I'd have a fuelie '57 Chevy, a '68 RS/SS 396 Camaro, Monster Miata, M Roadster, M5 (E39, not the ugly one), Viper, SRT-10 Ram, Lotus Elise Exige, LS6 Chevelle, etc, etc (I could go on for pages), but nary a Camry, Lexus, nor Honda in the lot. Ya think Biff or Muffy would tolerate any of my picks???!?? NO WAY!!!! They'd whine to the neighborhood association even if someone down the street dared to bring any of that stuff into their garages.

The "high-performance" Hondas do NOT appeal to me in any way. Maybe they're quick, but they have no torque whatsoever...not my idea of fun, but great for other people...different strokes for different folks.

I'd like for the MINI to have won, but the focus was picking the best "hot hatchback" for Joe Average. It's pretty clear in the article that the MINI is the pick of the litter for the hardcore crowd. Most folks just can't live with a car permanently set on 11.

Rawhyde

I won't go so far as say that the magazines are shills for the auto companies, but...

It's interesting how the newest car is always near the top in these comparisons. It looks like the magazines (advertisers) are already turning away from the current MINI; any bets on the mags seeing the '07 MINI as a quantum leap forward in car design, eclipsing all of its competitors? As with the Si/GTI against the current MINI, the '07 will be the latest gotta-have-it-now car. Until the next new thing. Such is the car magazine business.

Sorry, but I feel a bit cynical tonight...

The R&T article was pretty good I must say... I don't think it says anything that we all don't already know. The Cooper S is an enthusiats car with some quirkiness which people like us adore but many folks would rather do without. We all laugh about the cup holder conundrum in a Mini but many people take things like that seriously! Personally, the quirks are why i like the Mini (the window and lock switch location sort of bothers me, actually ) and if the review was purely about performance and excitement the editors pretty much say the Mini wins hands down.


Hey, a car is a lot of different things to a lot of different people and R&T tried to give an over-all review... and a pretty good one at that. What was most telling to me was their complaint with the Civic was the narrow power band and the lack of anything at low RPMS. That is a KILLER for me but not for most folks i guess.

Real nice car, but the seats sucked, and to get it to dance, you had to shift ALL THE TIME! No kidding about a peaky power curve. If it had been mine (was the wifes) I would have put a VTEC controller in it, to get the performance cam before 4500 RPM when it switched in stock configuration. but I bet the intake wasn't tuned to do too much with it there.

Fun car, great chassis, but too much work! Sounds like the new one still has some of those traits.

Matt

The thing that kills me is that the MINI took a severe beating on Ride. I't not *that* bad....

I agree. I love the lightweight Mini. The GTI is a great car, but not for me, and still not true-to-form of the original GTI's. But, for people that want more space and the likes, the GTI takes the cake in my book. They really should make it more powerful if they are going to use the "Fast" ad campaign, though...

Bad is good. The "ride" on an F1 car is probably really bad.

Well, at the end of the day I say let the majority of the people read this review and buy the GTI (aka the "people's car") and leave the MINIs for us -- the sales rate is still keeping us "special" yet good enough to convince BMW to continue to invest...oif course until R&T reviews the new MINI a year from now and puts us back at #1