Slightly misty here in VA today - prior to today we've gone several weeks without rain. So, as a lot of people know, this means the roads are especially slick with the build up of oils/etc that haven't been washed away.

I was on a slight incline at a traffic light, waiting to make a left on green after the oncoming traffic cleared. Saw an opening, let up on the clutch and moved out into the intersection with a Toyota truck coming towards me.

Then - wheels break traction and DSC kicked in! OMG - what a bizarro feeling of accelerating and then having no power available and you're just crawling through the intersection. DSC let go of the wheels, they accelerate, there's some spin again (I wasn't ready for the return of control) and DSC cut the engine power again.

I'm used to dealing with spinning wheels by easing up on the gas and controlling it until the traction grabs again. It reminds me of the transition from learing to brake old-school (before ABS) and with ABS (standing on the brake and let the car do it).

Needless to say, I need to give a little more cushion to pulling out in front of traffic as I get used to this and ease up on my starts in deteriorating conditions.

I can understand others' comments about DSC on this forum now that I've gone through this - your heart leaps into your throat for a couple of seconds until you figure out what's happening.

john

 

I know what you mean. I hate it. (well, I only have ASC, which is even bigger garbage)

I'm prettymuch in the habit of turning it off as soon as I crank the car. I wish I could just disable it.

 

This has got to be DSC's weakest point.
I'm sure having it keep you in line in a turn would be a good thing, instead of hitting a curb.

Ians circuit can disable DSC.

 

Exactly - I appreciate what it can do, it's just frustrating when I don't need it nor expected it. But I'll take that frustration in exchange for the day it saves me from a situation I couldn't have saved myself

 

This is definitely ASC kicking in, not DSC (if you have DSC you have one on without the other, but this power loss occurs when ASC senses wheel spin). But I agree wholeheartedly that these systems are too aggressive in their intervention "on your behalf".

 

You could turn off DSC with Ian Cull's Mini Circuit, but I think he just sold out and doesn't plan on making any more. Maybe you could pick one up on the boards or check ebay...

 

I had heard that he was out of the circuits.

But I'm actually looking to adjust my behavior/driving habits as opposed to defeating a "safety" feature of the car during my daily driving (I understand the desire to turn it off on track days).

I just wish the "take over" of control was a bit more smooth and less high-blood pressure inducing

john

 

I'd planned on buying one... figures he'd stop making them before I got around to ordering...

 

It would definitely be worth you effort to contact Ian Cull to confirm wheather he is out of them. I just received one from him yesterday.

 

My BMWs had this and was annoying in this particular type of situation.
I would usually just shut it off for the time being.
If you did shut it off, would LSD help out?

 

If your DSC kicked in because you lost traction, the last thing you should do is mash the pedal. The same is true if you had no traction control. If you had lightened up then the DSC could let go and you wouldn't feel so violated by it.

But I know that feeling where it is kicking in and you just want to get the heck outta the way of oncoming traffic even if it means spinning the wheels...This winter I'll have my steering wheel-toggled DSC (thanks to another of Ian's circuits) so I can quickly cancel it in that situation. But in no way would I recommend disabling it all the time. It's there to save your butt when you are stupid.

 

Someone posted in another thread that he's definitely out of them.

 

You're right, but I wasn't mashing the gas to overcome the DSC/ASC. I hadn't initially realized that's what was happening and I was just reacting to the loss of power. Then, I eased up - wheels were released, I gave it gas (adrenalin flowing now :impatient ), wheels spun again, DSC/ASC took over again and I limped through the intersection and down the ramp.

It was like a poorly timed "back and forth", the DSC/ASC reacting a whole lot faster than I could.

Of course, the answer is for me to be more aware of the road conditions and not try to thread a needle when cutting across traffic like that

 

I can't believe you people are in here defending ASC as a safety feature.

Safety feature for a complete incompetent maybe... I've activated it many times, and it was never anything but intrusive and endangering. Strangely enough, the time or two I've gotten really unexpected wheelspin (sharp turns on wet roads at moderate speeds) it hasn't activated.

 

Yay! I'm completely incompetent!

I'm so incompetent, I leave the DSC on when I'm on the track. And, you know what, it only kicks in on one corner, and only when I take that corner poorly.

And I'm passing plenty of cars, include a stock S, in my Cooper with DSC on.

I remember the good old days when people were making the same arguments about ABS... a "real driver" can threshold brake and stop the car faster than ABS.

 

We've had bmw's dsc on several cars including Minis and it rarely is too intrusive during street driving, even the very 'enthusiastic' back road type (the asc alone on one bimmer was harsher in cutting out then the dsc). The exception is launching from a stop, in particular in bad traction situation like you had, so turning it off for that seems to be the best bet for a good launch. I personally would not want it automatically disabled since I do want it on for those dark and stormy nights/unexpected situations where it can save me, and others around me.

I've had my own learning experiece when I forgot to put DCS back on and conditions changed. I was fine but plenty of people, even track experienced good drivers, learn a lessons the hard way - things and conditions can come up on the street that the dsc can really help with, especially since objects and other cars around you can interfere in actions you might otherwise make to compensate. No person is perfect and reactions spot on all the time, better safe then sorry, and its best to have the option for dsc IMHO (and better to have dsc over asc).

 

A good idea, DSC or no. Many (perhaps not all) of the DSC stories I've heard would have been much less dramatic if the driver was simply driving more cautiously. Admittedly, though, some perils are unforseen.

 

My bad experiences with DSC (Okay, the ACS part of DSC... whatever) have mainly been due to 2 things:

1) The system responds too slowly - I've already corrected throttle input by the time the electronic nanny has figgered out that there might be a problem - from that point, it's a heterodyning oscillation between computer and driver input, trying to reach equilibrium.

2) The system responds unpredictably - wheelspin does not seem to be a factor - maybe the LSD shifting power from one wheel to the other messes up granny's little electronic noggin, but it is impossible for me to predict when the intrusive power loss will occur.

To me, this behavior is a danger. It's happened repeatedly, and I've tried unsuccessfully to adapt my driving habits to accommodate it. To me, it became more of a danger than keeping DSC turned off - and that bothers me, because I paid for the option. I LIKE antilock braking - it's a mature technology that performs reliably and unobtrusively - and I know I can deal with the situation of the ABS system quits on me unexpectedly, having been fortunate enough to get plenty of experience with cars that didn't have it. I would love to take advantage of the DSC part of the DSC - it sounds like it too, is mature, predictable, and useful - but I can't abide by the power-suck when starting out. I have Ian's Track Mode circuit, and my DSC default is OFF. I feel like I have enough to fight if I get into a tricky situation without also having to fight the darn car!

Here's my spec for reference: 2005 MCSc, 6-spd stick, LSD, DSC, sport pkg, 17" runflat Dunlop SP9000s.

I have heard some encouraging news that the ASC power-suck problem may be related to the lack of grip from the stock runflats... I intend to replace them with some 3-season perfromance tires, and when that happens, I will definitely do some experimenting (safely) with the DSC switched on.

_Dave_

PS: I'm not talking about doing burnouts here. Spirited driving, yes, but not something that would get notice from the police - unless of course, the ACS kicks in and leaves me wallowing in the intersection...

PPS: After all this, I'm still not certain I've got the acronyms right... SInce ACS or ASC cannot be deactivated independently of DSC, from my perspective it's all part of the same system. The computer-assisted braking portion, controlled by inputs from accellerometers, wheel speed sensors, steering input sensor, etc. _seems_ like it would be a good thing to have; The engine-clamping (spark retarding, throttle-damping - whatever it is) is the part I have a huge problem with.

 

ASC is not really some independant part of DSC, if you haven't seen this you can read about it here:

http://www.bmwworld.com/technology/dsc.htm

I am guessing here, but aside from the LSD can the difference suspension and physics from weight in the cabrio be effecting it? Perhaps more weight shift causing it to respond more?

Just an idea since I do not have the unpredictablily issues you describe.

PS: In case anyone is not aware of this, ASC is what you get by default if you do not opt for DSC; there is no option to get a car without anything but you can turn off DSC (not sure if there is a switch for turning off ASC?).

 

I drove my Dad's Impala one night in 5 inches of snow. With traction control it just hooked up and was gone!

I'm guessing it's because GM took the time to calibrate the amount of power to corresponding traction conditions, therefore letting the car accelerate the fastest given the amount of traction.


DSC is a safety feature, ASC is NOT a safety feature, especially the way MINI has calilbrated it. Any of you who think ASC is a safety feature please detail a situation to me where it will increase your safety.

 

Unless you're buying a Cooper (not an S). In which case you can get one with no ASC (or ASC+T as it used to be called).


Whoops... better clarify...

You can get a Cooper with no ASC and no DSC. You can get a Cooper with ASC + DSC. You cannot get a Cooper with just ASC.

A Cooper S will always have ASC, you can add DSC as an option.

 

Thanks for the thoughtful response. From what I can tell, the soft top does have slightly different weight distribution, but I don't think it's drastically different. (There is of course, the convertible top mechanism and rear power window mechanisms in back, along with the roll structure, but the front end has also got additional bracing near the strut towers and in the windshield frame, so I think it's pretty even...)

I'm still thinking it's primarily the high-performance runflats' lack of grip, combined with the LSD power-transfer dynamic and the lower gearing in the '05 Getrag 6-spd stick...

I'm pretty certain that non-S MINIs with ASC have a switch to disable, similar to the switch on the S for the DSC/ASC combo. (Fortunately)

_Dave_

 

There's no such beast as a Cooper with ASC (only). A Cooper either has DSC/ASC combo (and a switch to turn it off) or nothing (and no switch).

 

I run with the ASC disabled all the time I can't stand the car telling me what it wants to do vs what I want it to do. Yes it is suppose to be a safety feature BUT I leanred how to drive in a car that doesn't have it and didnt crash so I think I can handle another car with this intrusive thing. I whoel reason I bought a manual was to have control of my car not to be told... hey your wheels are spinning no power for you!... if I spin them that my fault and I adjust by adding less gas or less clutch...

-Josh

 

My suspicion is that a lot of folks got DSC simply for the toggle**. Think about it....be honest!!!!:smile:



**...not that there's anything wrong w/ that.