Hi there, I just joined NAM and from the dozens of posts I've read, it seems like a great community.

I graduate from university in a few weeks and I will be looking into getting a car. This car will be partially funded by my parents and myself.

Now, I've created a short list of cars that I would be interested in (in order of desire)

MINI Cooper (S or non-S)
Honda Civic SiR Hatchback (Si in the States, 160hp)
Subaru Impreza 2.5RS (or maybe the wagon)
Golf V (a low end one, may have reliability issues though)
Acura RSX
Toyota Celica
Mazda 3 Sport (I don't really like the looks).
Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
Toyota Echo Hatch (Yaris) Fully Loaded 5 door RS version
Honda Civic 4 Door (competent, but oh-so-boring)
Mitsubishi Lancer OZ Edition (although Mitsu seems to be on shaky ground) Toyota Corolla SRS (top of the line, meh looks, dull)

Price-wise, these are fairly comparable, with the SiR and a basic Cooper about the same price.

Now, I am a 23 year-old driver. I've been driving since I was 17 or so with a spotless record (a minor fender bender settled outside of insurance).

If I chose a Cooper, I could afford to put in a few options such as DSC or Nav (which I really like in a car). If I get a Cooper S, it would pretty much have to be bare-bones. I'm not all that crazy about the hood scoop either, but I have a feeling I would enjoy the extra 60 horses.

I have yet to test drive a Cooper, but I did sit in one once in a showroom (a while back). The interior was pretty good, but somewhat bizzare. Luckily, the nav package would move the speedo to the wheel (which I prefer).

What I'm interested in knowing is two things:

1. Cost to own of the Cooper and Cooper S compared to some of the vehicles mentioned above. (gas, insurance, repairs)

2. Performance of the Cooper and Cooper S compared to some of the cars listed above. (I may need to go Automatic on either car)

I'm in Toronto, Canada, so I have a choice of a couple of dealerships (not too fond of Markham MINI though, they kinda ignored me and my dad when we were in the showroom).

Being a MINI forum, I suspect the answer will go towards the MINI, but I would like a balanced opinion wherever possible :smile:

P.S. - For those of you who had to convince a significant other or your parents on getting the MINI, how'd you approach it? It's not exactly the most practical car after all!

 

I got a Cooper because it was the only car that my legs could fit under the steering wheel [aside from BMWs, MB, Audi]. I would really suggest the manual transmission in the Cooper, I didn't find the CVT peppy enough. The Cooper is really good for city driving though. Is the RSX-S in your range? I would take a look at that, I probably would have bought one if I wasn't so tall.

 

There are a hundred reasons, but they boil down to the fact that it's more than just a car. It's really something special. Many of the othre cars on your list are attractive options. Won't slam any of them. Still recommend the MINI.

Drive a Cooper and a Cooper S before you form your opinion. Then go through the rest of your list. You won't find another car that has that special MINI-thing.

As for cost of ownership and gas mileage, the MINI will do better than some and not a well as others. I'd have to guess that it would place in the top two-thirds. Don't forget about resale value. The MINI retains its value better than any other car right now.

 

You gotta be kidding me.... you put a MINI in the same category as an Echo?! Ill tell you what... let me run down the list for you:

Honda Civic SiR Hatchback (Si in the States, 160hp) - Slow & Ugly

Subaru Impreza 2.5RS (or maybe the wagon) Whats the point?? No turbo, no fun! Just a plastic bucket with seats

Golf V (a low end one, may have reliability issues though) Again, no turbo... no fun. Not to mention these things are pretty damn ugly also

Acura RSX Girl Car

Toyota Celica Another girl car

Mazda 3 Sport (I don't really like the looks) Probably the best alternative.... but only if its the mazdaspeed

Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V Sorry if I offend anyone but.... GAY

Toyota Echo Hatch (Yaris) Fully Loaded 5 door RS version "What does an echo sound like?" ...... are you kidding me?? NO

Honda Civic 4 Door (competent, but oh-so-boring) At least it will get you to wear youre going.... no wait, scratch that.... at MOST it will get you to where you are going

Mitsubishi Lancer OZ Edition I hate these cars.... dont know why, but I do.

 

I just speced out the most basic Cooper S

Basically it has nothing except LSD (which is a pretty good deal it seems), H&K audio and some minor things like chrome bits and bonnet stripes.

$33k Canadian (not incl. tax)

That's RSX Type-S territory, just $1.5K under my father's TSX. It's $2k away from a WRX.

As for my choices above, they're ranked according to my tastes, so it's logical that as you move down that list, it gets worse. I personally like the Civic Si hatchback design, but many people don't. And yes, it's kinda heavy.

Still, I recognize that the MINI has the X-Factor, a quality that is hard to quantify with specs. If all things were equal, I would choose the MINI hands down, but it seems to me the MINI falls behind price/specs-wise.

Then again, I probably just need a test drive to change my mind. I have no doubt that it will.

 

MINI Cooper (S or non-S)
Honda Civic SiR Hatchback (Si in the States, 160hp)
Subaru Impreza 2.5RS (or maybe the wagon)
Golf V (a low end one, may have reliability issues though)
Acura RSX
Toyota Celica
Mazda 3 Sport (I don't really like the looks).
Nissan Sentra SE-R Spec V
Toyota Echo Hatch (Yaris) Fully Loaded 5 door RS version
Honda Civic 4 Door (competent, but oh-so-boring)
Mitsubishi Lancer OZ Edition (although Mitsu seems to be on shaky ground) Toyota Corolla SRS (top of the line, meh looks, dull)

Hey, that's pretty close to the same list I had. Have you gone and test driven all of these? You should. A lot of the things you like or dislike about a car will be purely subjective. All cars will have their weaknesses as well as strengths. After driving, reading and learning about cars for over 25 years, I have yet to find the absolutely perfect car at any price for me. When you are looking at, say, an Acura RSX, if you go to Type-S range or Toyota Celica GT, you are closing in very quickly on BMW 320i range or Volve S40. Actually, a MINI Cooper S is in the same range as a Volvo S40 (base model). So there are still a few more options to consider. Value for money, pretty tough to beat the Mazda 3GT. However, I found the engine to be a bit on the not-so-fun side and I felt that even though they raised the bar on entry-level cars, it will feel like an entry level car in about 5 years. The styling will probably look dated. Honda tends to save weight in their cars by using thinner metal. They feel faster than they really are. But they are great cars though. A friend of mine has a Civic SiR hatch. It is a hoot to drive. I felt the RSX had a few handling quirks that were not to my liking. I liked the Golf, but by the time I optioned it up to what I wanted, it was way over my budget and it still didn't have all the safety features of the MINI. A car I seriously considered was the Subaru RS2.5. The driving position is near perfect and Subaru has improved their interior materials. But the styling of the car didn't really wet my whistle. I've always liked the Sentra SER Spec V but it has a few glaring omissions in standard equipment for a pocket rocket. ABS and independent rear suspension being a few considerations. Out of the box, the MINI offered all the standard equipment and safety goodies at a better price than the others if you were able to add them on the others. Then you could upgrade to your hearts content (and lighten your wallet too). I still feel the gas pedal position is a bit strange but does not detract from my driving enjoyment. It is also the most fun to drive of all the other cars on your list.

One more thing I noticed was you left out even considering some American cars. You really should give them a test drive for your benchmarking purposes. From reading and talking to a few people, it appears the Cobalt SS and Pontiac Pursuit are a huge improvement over their predecessors. The Ford Focus SVT is supposed to be pretty good too but I didn't like the overall styling. A lot of my friends are ogling over the Mustang. I haven't driven it but if it is in your budget you should take the time to check it out. If I offend you by suggesting American cars, I didn't mean to. I'm just suggesting that there are a lot of cars out there in the $20K-$35K range. Since you will be spending significant time in it, you should spend some time doing the research and considering all the options and picking the best for your circumstances.

I hope you come to the same conclusion as I did. I bought a MINI Cooper S.

Now that I've finished my rambling, to answer your questions.

In my opinion, the Cooper is as fun to drive as the Cooper S. However, you have to flog it a bit more. The power band is higher up in the Revs so you have to work the transmission more to keep it up there. The suspension is not as harsh as the Cooper S either. However, the Cooper S has the 6 speed transmission, bigger wheels (and a harsher ride, but they do look nice), more power and torque. I would have liked LSD but didn't want to wait for it, nor did I find it an absolute necessity. Again, we're talking about options not available on the other cars you had considered. The gas mileage is a bit better for the Cooper but not much. I believe the difference is only 1 litre per 100kms. or about 2 miles per gallon. But it will all depend on how you drive it. Believe me, you'll be driving the Cooper a lot harder (it's just so much fun!) that gas mileage is going to be about the same as the Cooper S.
Normal maintenance, is the same on both cars. However, if you have anything major happening to your car, the Cooper S is a more complicated drivetrain so it might be more expensive to repair in the long run.

If you have to go automatic, the Cooper S is a 6 speed with paddle shifts (lots of fun!!). The Cooper has a CVT with 5-simulated gears of paddle shifting. Still lots of fun but not as much. If you take the CVT out of paddle shift mode, it would be quite dull if the car didn't handle as well as it did. My neighbour went and bought a 2005 Cooper with CVT. I enjoyed it very much. But it may not have the torque for spirited hill climbing.

It shouldn't be too hard to convince your parents to get a MINI. Have them drive it. Explain to them it's the only car in the price range with airbags all over the place (safety), the most precise handling and the best brakes.

I've been approached by total strangers asking me about my car because they would consider a MINI for their children. So it probably won't be too big a stretch to convince your parents to get you a MINI. Just do your homework (research on all the various cars on your list) and give them the facts. The pros and cons of each car and how you came to the conclusion the MINI was the best car to purchase for your needs. It's hard, but try not to get too emotional about your choice. Treat your parents with the respect they deserve and they will have full confidence in your decision.


Good Luck

 

I have college aged children and if they wanted to consider a first car I'd advise them to look for a used MC (base cooper). That would be a good value and the extra power of the MCS is not missed since the MC is much lighter and nimble. For the money you can get more options with the MC and either the CVT or 5 speed manual will work. The biggest selling point is that the MINI is very fun to drive and it is very very safe.

If you need to buy new then the current MC and MCS are quite good and improved in quality and features. Set a budget and test drive both. If automatic becomes a must have feature then probably the MC with CVT will be worth a look but if you can swing a bare bone MCS with automatic and paddle shifters you will be HAPPY! It's really smooth. Probably your parents will want to drive it more than you. Just hide the keys under your pillow when you go to sleep so they spend hours searching for the "LOST" keys.

Other cars worth a peek-
Scion tC
The new Jetta
Saturn Ion Redline Quad coupe from $21,450 to $23K+
http://www.saturn.com/saturn/showroo...ne.jsp?nav=280

 

I'll keep my opinion short on this. Out of your list the Mini would easily be the most fun to drive. For overall practicality I don't think I would recommend the Mini. It depends on what all your needs are. You need to consider things like insurance, how much driving you'll be doing (fuel economy), having passengers, cargo space, etc.

 

That's an OK list as far as options...I'd strike the Echo from that list right away...you will not be happy at all with that car, especially compared to ANYTHING in that list. Toyota is a reliable car, and dare I say, the most reliable cars made, but still, the fun and resale factor is not going to be in your favor. Out of the Toyotas the Corolla would be your best bet as long as it's the newest model...otherwise, the Celica goes out of production after this year because of the Scion tC impeding on it's market share, as does the MR2...they're no longer selling as Toyota would like.

As far as the Subaru, if you're not getting one of their turbo engines, don't bother. Subaru is a good car company, but again, for resale you would have to opt for either a WRX, or an STi...

Mitsu and VW, I would say no...reliability issues with the engines and drivetrain are minimal, but issues with build quality (interior and trim) is horrible on both...to the point of many class action lawsuits around the country.

Nissan, like Toyota, will not let you down in the reliability issues mechanically (they seem to be saving all those issues for their new trucks), but again, it's cookie cutter, over produced and undersold. You could throw a stone in your neighborhood and hit about 15 of them at any given time.

Mazda, well, Ford's are nice But like it was sad, the MazdaSpeed version would be the only wise choice, as it will offer better aftermarket and a good resale amount.

The MINI was rated as one of, if not the best resale car to buy...it holds it's value extremely well, it is reliable, gets good gas mileage, and is not on every street corner you see. It's desireable to own, and drive...so I guess after all of that breakdown, I would choose the MINI on all levels.

The Hondas are like the Toyota and Nissan...you can find at least 3000 of them per square mile (or km depending on how you measure) Reliable, but that's about it...no longer an exciting car to own, if it was ever exciting in the first place.

Dave.

 

Actually, the only thing I'm not too worried about is resale value. I plan on driving the car into the ground (or keeping it around as a collectable ). It's kind of a family tradition of sorts.

Depending if I get to learn to drive a manual this summer, I might or might not get the Auto transmission withe Steptronic. My dad's TSX has it, but i wasn't overly impressed with it: it seemed to respond very slowly. Since I anticpiate mainly city driving, an automatic might be best.

 

I, as well as most folks here, could spend ALL DAY typing reasons why to get a MINI vs. any of these other vehicles - but I'll just make a few quick observations:

1. Practicality - I'm still surprised when I hear people berate this car for its limited practicality. After coming out of a Subaru Legacy wagon into the MINI, I'd have to say that I'm flabbergasted at the overall practicality of my little Molly! There is only one catch: you can haul stuff or you can haul people - but not both simultaneously. Maybe I'm an exception, but I've been able to accomplish quite a bit in the MINI. For instance, my wife, myself, and our two beagles (in their crates!), plus weekend gear have all packed in for trips. I've hauled countless items from Home Depot/Lowes - including an assembled BBQ grille. We took 4 adults (all slender but average heights) on an 8 hour (round trip) drive - with only minimal complaints and one rest stop in each direction. Given your age and stage of life, I don't think you'll have quite the same demands of a vehicle as a "family man" would - it should be plenty for your general needs. Bottom line - don't underestimate the practicality of MINI.

2. Reliability/Cost of Ownership - You're young and just graduating college. The car will be virtually cost free for 50,000 miles/4 years because of the warranty (unless you really get into the Mod mode). If your income doesn't increase substantially in that 4 year period, then I daresay you're not doing it right! Really though, at your age, I'd be surprised to find that after 3 or 4 years you're still driving the same car - regardless of which one you decide to purchase. Now I realize that I'm making some generalizations about people at your life-stage, but I don't think they're wild generalizations. Although it is good to see you approaching this with some long-term vision, I wouldn't think too far into the future - you will have a lot of curveballs and unknowns to get through in these next few years. I, personally, don't think you need to really think much beyond the warranty period of most new cars out there. I imagine that you'll be wanting to trade up to something nicer/better/newer/etc within that time - it is the American Way after all.

3. To add to this thought from beken: Just like anything in life, in order to acheive one thing there will be trade-offs/sacrifices made for something else. However, I think that the MINI offers the best overall package going - FUN, looks, performance, practicality, reliability, resale value, fuel economy, etc - and did I mention FUN?

4. Last point - and it is a repeat. Drive the cars! There can be a lot of logical discussion about rationale and reasons to buy this or that - but the MINI has something above and beyond logic - and it has it in spades. The best word that I know to use is a very very simple one - FUN. You get a hint of the fun lurking in the car when you look at it - but even the shortest of test drives will find the motorer in anyone! The logical reasons are all there, but when you can add this into the equation - the scales tip heavily in one direction!

Best of luck in the decision process and hopefully some of what is said here helps. Oh, and be sure to let us all know what you decide - MINI or otherwise!

 

Whooops! Just remembered that you're in Canada. We'll maybe it's the North American Way?

 

Practical for what? It’s the most practical car I’ve had in years.

It gets me to work every day and it gets me across the finish line at the track ahead of anyone else. If that’s not practical I have not a clue what you are looking for.

 

My ex. had a first year echo,I found it under powered,and it felt like it was going to roll over even when it was standing still.On the highway in any kind of wind it blew all over the place.But it ran very well,and only needed regular maint.for the 3 years she had it.
I drove a Mazda3 hatch last summer,the paddles were fun to shift,handling was fine,but the interior did nothing for me.
Have not driven any of the other cars on your list,never even been in one,so can't comment on them.

I got a MC because I have a 100 mile return daily commute,95% of which is on not the smoothest of highways,and I found the ride of the MCS kind of harsh,but those extra ponies sure made the on and off ramps a hoot.
In the summer I get between 6.9-7.2 per 100 litres,41-39MPG,
about 36-38 U.S gallons,cruizing between 110-115KMs,about 70MPH.In the winter,gas consuption goes down about 10%,snowtires,warm-up time,the traction control kicking in.
The biggest problem was a bad seal on the tranny letting go,which allowed fluid to drain,but I made it to the dealer,they put in a new improved seal,and ordered a new tranny for me.This problem was cold weather related,as in Manitoba cold,not Toronto cold,and should not be an issue anymore,as the new MCs use a Gertag tranny,not a Midlands.
I have not driven either of the autos,so can't comment on that,plus I like driving a stick.
Remember,up here we can get a Classic Cooper,no Xenons,solid colour only,no ASC+T[traction control,standard on the MC]and limited in the options you can put on it.
My MINI is the most fun car I have owned,except for my Classic Mini I had in the 70s.It is by far the safest car I have owned,both from what I know about it and how I feel about it.

Here in Manitoba,public insurance,the MINI is about the same to insure as any car in its class,sub-compact.
Go test them all,phone the dealers before you go,so that you know they have cars ready to test,and have fun.
Them buy a MINI

 

I originally got my car for racing. Might not be what your looking for but I choose my cooper knowing it was light wait has amazing hp for its size looks allot different then most cars and is very reliable.

Even before I put the mods on you can cream all those cars on your list if you get the Mini S.

From the list you gave one might think you want to put some after market parts on them. If you want to go modding and make an awesome car for show/racing etc. go for the Mini I have found my car to be the biggest crowd pleaser when I win races or shows.

Now comparing the list you have supplied none of those seem really unique there all plain. No style nothing different.

"People who drive Minis are different then normal people because they wanted something different then normal people."---anonymous

I am however very happy you did not list a suv or a truck on that.

 

Actually, I plan to keep my car relatively stock in order to maintain the factory warranty. I've been hearing a lot about replacing the pulley though, as well as replacing the stock exhaust.

That and new rims may be the only things I do, if, of course, it keeps the warranty. After the warranty.. who knows :D