So im stating to mod my new cooper ..I just installed the larger intercooler and intake and it has exhaust already and my catless header will be here and installed 2morrow so I'm not worried about corresponding mods. I even have bigger injectors already and my tuner on call but I'm wondering if the 20% is worth the extra wait in shipping as only the 19% is offered in the U.S.. I remember how much of a difference the 17% made vs the 15% so I'm looking forward to seeing how much it helps going from stock to 19% or 20%.
what the boost level difference between the 2x ??? , like what's the max psi difference between the 2x and would the 20% you think offer atleast 5hp gain ACROSS the Rev range not just down low ? If so It may be worth the wait as I'm taking the car to its limits on stock head , sc and cam.
also if it matters the 19% would be coming from wowmw and the 20% would be coming from Kavs.

 

I’m replacing my 17 to 19 and i have plus 2 crank. Wanted the 20 but chose the 19 due to patience lol.

As long as you dint stay above 5k rpm all the time i think it’ll be fine. We all know itll over spin everything.

 

My apologies for jumping on a SC pulley conversation. However, I had long been interested in the advantages of upgrading to a lager intercooler (i.e. HoBo?).
I have minor bolt on mods: 15% SC pulley, modified CI and colder NGKs....
Any advantages to upgrading to a larger intercooler?

Thanks!

 

Not for the street.

The largest value in a larger I/C is its ability to shed heat during recovery, which makes it far more valuable for track use. Heat shed is also why the choice of I/C's (materials used and design) is more important than their actual size, with a S/C car that has far more limited boost than a turbo car.

Best thing for battling heat in a street car is W/M or a simple I/C sprayer.

 

Most likely the difference between 19% and 20% would actually be negligible without W/M or something else to considerably cool the charge. Unfortunately, at the heat levels of those two choices, I don't think a larger intercooler would be that beneficial under WOT.

 

It heatsoaks way slower than the stock IC, but it also recovers slower than the stock IC (and has some flow drop). Hobo intercooler isnt that expensive and in imho a good bang for buck mod (I have one myself).

More info in my build thread > https://www.northamericanmotoring.co...ml#post4561676

 

Hey - Thanks for the quick info guys!
@nd-photo.nl - Totally enjoyed/envious for the link you provided. Very impressive photo documentation.

I realize how I may sound "picky" (or whiny) but, One of my biggest pet peeves is when "professional" auto mechanics use my
intercooler as a place to set their tools. It really irks me everytime I pop the hood - my eyes are immediately drawn to dented fins on my IC.

I will be replacing it with OEM soon.

 

stooooooooop it recovers 10 seconds slower to a much cooler temp IVE PERSONALLY TESTED THEM WITH DATA.in no way shape or form in aaaaaaaaaany conditions does the stock ic compare to even the larger ebay one.. plz stop spreading false info .. you think stock ic is best is like saying stock intake Is best..cmon now..like I said , I've tested them with recorded iats times ect ....lol trust me. Stocker sucks..

 

get the ebay larger ic. You will be happy...trust me..

 

I've had the GPIC, ran it on the street, data logged my temps as well (Sprintex with the 60mm pulley), and for Mexican stop light and highway brawl'in, there was a negligible difference (maybe 5°) between it and the OEM unit, when it came to intake temps under a few seconds of WOT, only really made a difference in recovery time.

So yes, for track or heavy canyon use, sure.
But not for stand on it for a few seconds, then go down the road type driving.
​
In reality, when it comes to IAT's and performance, there are too many immediate variables such as, ambient temps and barometric pressure, for any definitive, one size fits all answer anyway.

I never said stock was best, I just think that the differences in actual air temps under WOT, for street use, just isn't worth the expense. I feel that money is better spent with W/M or even a simple I/C sprayer, when it comes to most people's street use and actual performance gains.
JUST my opinion, but I can do a simple I/C sprayer, with cool box, tubing, and washer motor, for not much money and have a better cool down of IAT's at WOT. Than any upgrade in I/C, for the occasional "blast on the street" in Mexico.

(Supplemental)
Something I just remembered this morning, besides cooling there's also the consideration of fitment. Not just any issues with original install fitment, but overall size. I actually sold my GPIC and went back to OEM because the differences in performance was so little it wasn't worth pulling the I/C every time I wanted to simply look at the Spark Plugs. Not sure about the above mentioned options, but it was a consideration with the GPIC.

 

I am running the 20% pulley. It's makes max boost SO soon in the rpm band abd it peaks at 16 or 17lb of boost. But it will throw a lean code if I hit max boost so I need to toss in the 380cc injectors and have adriancl tune it.
my only other mods are larger intercooler, cold air intake, step colder plugs , catless ebay header with pacesetter exhaust ( no cel running 02 defouler ) and msd coilpack and wires..that's it.. lol car pulls pretty dang well for such few mods. I bet if I run a 3% crank , tpe charge pipe and an electric waterpump I bet the stock sc could perform alllllllmost as well as my sprintex is. I'm curious. I guess time will tell...I kinda did intend to run this car as strong as possible using the stock sc ,head n cam and see how it performs vs my other mini with ALL so called better mods like big valve head , sprintex , ns1 cam , better headers n exhaust, everything supposedly better. We shall see

 

hehe simple ic sprayer like this ?? My iats actually GET COLDER as I go faster wide open throttle. It's funny actually seeing the speedometer and boost pressure rise but yet iats drop..

 

You guys running the blower that hard are wild. For anyone who actually wants to know the limitations of the stock M45 Eaton, just call them and ask. Max RPM for this unit is supposed to be 14,750 RPM. On a bone stock R53 the Eaton M45 runs at 14,317 RPM..... And you're making the pulley 20% smaller!?

The W11 motor has a flow rate of about 270 cubic meters per hour.
If hitting 17psi, your pressure ratio is 14.7 + 17 / 14.7 = 2.16
Now look at this efficiency island map for the M45. Find 2.16 on the Y axis and 270 on the X axis: https://www.eaton.com/ecm/groups/pub.../ct_128483.gif

Do you see how wildly outside the efficiency you are? You're not even on the map!

Also, is somebody seriously running a 19% pulley and other bolt-ons on a stock tune and injectors? And you're going to have AdrianCL remote tune it?

Buy a different car if you're looking for big power. This is ridiculous.

 

that was for a stock setup to run efficiently fir mileage to power and they have to have it under certain decibel of noise from the engine compartment.. I'm running it on a modified engine FOR power.. I'm not concerned about excess engine noise abd loss of mileage all of which has to be engineered into a stock piece.
your comparing apples to oranges. A dailydriver car is going to be setup far differently than a performance built car that's just for power.
I've seen and read where it's been tested numerous times on a 20% pulley and was safe. The water pump over spinning abd causing air bubbles was false , I can show you too if you pay me the $$$ i will install a clear tube in my coolant and record the coolant flow through it at WOT at 70mp and show the coolant flows juuuuuuust fine...next concern was the alternator being overdriven and overcharging which again they had a vote meter n stuff hooked up showing the alternators handled it juuuuuust fine to , THATS WHY THERES A voltage regulator in it..there's too much false info out there. No offense buy a Google search isn't God. I hate when people try and prove Me wrong with a quick Google search on something I HAVE HANDS ON PERSONAL experience with..
I see your graph #s but do those apply on an engine with an intake , no cat and headers with exhaust , injectors , ignition , and tuned ???? I mean the data logs too don't lie....my engine is running safe even at wot 130mph its not leaned out. The data and numbers don't lie and I have them rite in front of me ,real world. having cooling or iat issues aren't the limit the limit only is the speed limit. Built it rite ,all there is to say.
you can read Google and assume all you want but I'm doing it , real word , real numbers , real parts and real drive scenarios. So don't go puking ******** out there for others to read and then do a smaller pulley only to be disappointed in what it added.. idc what you say , my minis will be making as much power as they can on said setups.thats how I run mine and I have 0 issues so far too. I've had few issues with my sprintex setup but that was install error on my end. Other than that. 0 issues. But continue assuming bro and don't don't use your opinion on what a car should be to tell someone what to do with theirs. People build up and modify the n/a coopers all for a big 150hp BUT they do it for the fun and love of it.. I love it and I will do it..

 

the heat is gonna be bad, friend of mine is has a m62 putting out 21psi the snout was 300 degrees

 

yes, I too had an impala with an m62 too running like 20+ boost with a full zzp kit abd tune and yes, those do run much hotter and the engine didn't have an intercooler either , does your freinds have an ic ? I'm willing to bet if it's a gtp ss or such it's not. Lol I was womping this dudes safe 3x setup ille post below,they just don't run efficiently in the setup and engine their on.
acording to my inpa and the stock reading the iats were very very favorable. They were running average of 20-25 above ambient temperature and hard long pulls it wouldnt get much more than 40 over ambient. I'd say that very acceptable. Now, if were on a track continually doing pulls I doubt it would maintain the iats BUT for street use , it's absolutely acceptable.
but lol now my Grey mini , the longer I go wot and the faster it goes, it only gets cooler and cooler due to its setup..
here's that dudes car he was at 24psi and it was running low low 15s only I think ONCE he broke 14 that day. Look at how that sc is setup. It all about how you build it man. That could be setup to run so much more efficiently imo.

 

So, if you haven't checked the pump for signs of cavitation, how do you know it's fine at high RPM? Also, changing the supercharger pulley isn't going to turn the alternator faster. I don't know why you're suggesting it would.

That graph isn't going to change for different mods. It's just the adiabatic efficiency of the supercharger as a function of boost and supercharger flow rate (not engine).

I'm curious to see your data.

 

Wouldn't changing the intake and exhaust path infront and behind the sc alter those numbers at all.??? I mean I'm sure the sc wasn't tested off an engine with endless ability to flow air. There are restrictions that can be removed and improved upon and the pulley size can be changed. would that not alter the sc's ability to flow ??? I mean I'm sure it was tested in under 100% stock engine configuration. I'm not saying it does I legit asking if it does.
I will post up some pics of iats and pulls with it eventually...unfortunately winter isn't going to be a good telltale sign of how it's going to perform.. I will have to wait until atleast spring todo so. I will try and find the article I read where they tested 15%-20% pulleys , they had pressure number graphs of how each pulley performed and how much extra heat they made..I won't argue the fact that your not just gonna he able to slap a 17% or more pulley on a stock engine.. but when you have corresponding mods it can be run safely..I was pointing out the alternator thing because that's another big myth thrown around about using more aggressive sc pulleys. That was my point. And in the tests the waterpump didn't cause cavitation what so ever. They had a clear pipe installed inline in the coolant system and could physically watch and measure the coolant flowrate and temp and it was always fine , even the pressure never built up excessive..there's just been too many false info used as facts by people that have never ever touched these said mods but yet know exactly how they perform. But when I got some more time ille find and link that article , it was very informative....but I mean cmon , you've probably seen somewhat of my other build , I'm not a noob here. I'm no guru but I have hands on experience now using a decent amount if available aftermarket parts.. lol I've been one of these people I seen to run a 60mm pulley on my sprintex with a 2% crank. Lol had I seen there was a 3% crank I'd probably opted for that one..
just wait , if the numbers are good enough running just this 20% pulley I will put on a 3% crank then too..lllolll I said my goal was to push the stock head,cam and sc to their limits and that's what I'm going to do..I know I can go other route but this is my plan. I went the other route with my other car. I wanna do a little experiment and see how well the stock stuff performs at it absolutel limits vs a aftermarket big valve head , a cam abd an aftermarket supercharger. I'm curious if I can get the same hp abd power or atleast close to..if iats get bad I get meth. It's that simple. If it goes lean I add more injector or more fuel via tuning.. I do run data logs for adriancl to check , he WILL always tell me if it needs any bit of adjustments and if he were to see anything unsafe in the datalogs he would tell me abd I would fix the cause of the issue..minis are not the only car I've built up in my time. I've built nitrous motors , other sc motors , na builds. V6s. V8s . I've played with alot of them now. I won't claim to know it all but I will atleast backup what I do know and when I don't know I'm ne er afraid to say so and ask for help. Thats how I've learned , research, lots of questions and habd on experience. If I'm not 100% certain on something I'm not going to go around acting otherwise.
here's an article from 08 people running them , tuning was an isdue then at the 20spi thing I guess still but adriancl has been able to tune past that nooooooooo issues.. like I said, my other cars at 21psi 0 issues but here. Read and watch. Yes , there was some tuning issues back then in this article BUT that has been taken care of now. This is the problem .I think people throw around old info. Like saying they can't tune after 20psi , or waterpump cavitation and alternator over charging.. Allllllllll bulllllllllshiiiiiiiiiit. Only issues are fuel and iat's. If you can get them under control ,ur fine.

https://www.northamericanmotoring.com/forums/drivetrain-cooper-s/149184-19-pulley-20-psi-cars-running-lean-what-to-do.html

https://youtu.be/xODVbavP_qQ

 

No. It wasn’t tested on an engine at all; it’s just a bench test. It tells you how efficient the supercharger is at pumping air at a give pressure ratio and flow rate. As the efficiency drops, it takes more power to spin the blower, and it produces a lower density increase for a given pressure. Or something to that effect. It’s been a very long time since I really delved into thermo and fluids. Basically, you can’t just spin the blower faster and faster and expect to keep making more power indefinitely, but you already knew that.

 

Lol every time I come here Adam is asking something sort of silly and then calling people dumb for responding that have 30k into their engine while he has like 500. Ok so that might sound harsh but I'm being a smart *** but dude seriously I can appreciate you always trying new stuff but legit this one is a waste and I can share with you hour and hours of Link Logs to show you if you legit would like me too. I am being serious on that one. Run a 17% the Catcam 469 and legit be amazed at your power from just that. Blown away has like 30k into his setup as do I so please listen to those that have the knowledge.


Be well man. seriously. Don't take what I said like a douche bag thing but more of a common man stop and think. At some point, you need to stop goofing around with one or the other and get a RMW head and a TVS900 or a turbo setup.


As far as 20psi goes...hell I am running 26psi with my tvs setup but the stock ring lands dont like long-term use over 20 psi and I have cracked them and hell I have cracked a stock bore. So keep that in mind about the ringlands and their thicknes or lack of and their height on the slug. I am running the Alejandros design slugs.

 

not one person posted any sort of useful truthful info WHO HAS actually run a 19% or 20%.. that's my point, know it all who have no 1st hand experience just a quick googles search and they're a thesaurus.
DANG YOU CAN GET 26PSI ON THE TVS !!!!!!! ????!!!!!!! What pulley setup are you running? geez I might ditch my sprintex for real then and save for a tvs. Also what's your opinion on the ns1 cam ? I have that in my other mini and was considering a more aggressive cam but don't know which I want as I want one that's add alot in the upper end and I know my ns1 cam only really adds tq BUT it adds it through out for the most part..but what's the most aggressive cam out there ? I wouldn't care about a lumpy idle and bit of low end low if I gain alot more mid to upper. I also don't mind denting the sparkplug tubes for clearance.
you are correct.. the 19 and 20 just gives the peak boost at lower rpms and doesn't add more boost like I was hoping..
The stock sc is reaching its limits so all its really doing runningbthis small of a pulley is changing where max boosts comes on. Actually I from what I read the 17% Actually build MORE boost but the 20 hits max boost by far the soonest which is how it makes it outperform the 17%. I guess it doesn't outperform it its just how you use your car for what's best for you. It's a street car so I figured this would be a perfect combo since on street your not at high speeds abd IF I need that nice low end entra grunt to show them my trunk ,ille have it..
I WILL call people dumb when they come on my posts posting bogus stuff like cavitation and over charging the alternator. THAT I called them out on , absolutely ! But I was open to being educated on the max flow numbers of the SC and how that will come into effect wgen running different size pullies.. I NOW understand them much much more.
I wonder if porting the sc would help.. I wish I hadn't sold my sc I ported out because I hogged that thing out ALOT lol , I removed alot of material in the outlet and I opened up the V very large and sealed off the silencer ports.. I wonder if and how much that woulda helped it flow and resist heat. But then that defeats my experiment of seeing how much I can push the main stock stuff to because then why not port the head and intake then too ??
I did knowtice A HUGE restriction in this cars intake though , in the right side horn I was wiping it out one time and inside there's literally mountains of material on the inside, it was crazy ! My other mini didn't have that anybit but this one was like fricken weld slag is littered on the inside of it..THAT DEFINITELY NEEDS to be smoothed out.
I guess I answered my question so this thread is about dead.... ille maybe post up data logs of aggressive pulls come warmer weather to show and explain more about a 20% pulley..

 

I can't make you appreciate the facts, friend.

I admire your enthusiasm, but you're running towards and beyond the point of diminishing returns. The bolt-on modifications you listed above will change the engines ability to flow air, yes. BUT, take just one second to look at what I posted, specifically the Eaton efficiency island map: As the flow rate of the engine increases (X axis) you get EVEN FURTHER away from the ideal efficiency of the blower. I can't stress that enough.

Has anyone on here ever owned a Miata? The M45 is a very common blower used on NA & NB Miatas. Generally speaking, that community understand the limitations of this unit and rarely ever runs more than 10psi out of it. Things have limitations.

 

I'm not arguing your point I'm agreeing with you..I think a 20% Is for auto cars that can't get as high in the rpm band. A 17% DOES make MORE boost JUST at higher rpms..for the what this car is used for itle be fine though , yes , a 17% pulley I TOTALLY agree is this superchargers max.. BUT that doesn't mean you can't modify around it for it to run abit past efficiency and not damage anything other than make some extra heat and not quite as much boost BUT that's if your running it past the limit in the rpm range..
I couldn't find anything related to this info I was looking for by someone who's personally used the mods..well, I did and I've answered my questions and I hope if anyone else down the line , like me was wondering the exact differences between a 17,19 and 20% pulley..

 

yes it has the stock R53 top mount intercooler

M45 snout bolts right onto a m62. This is in my garage

 

You guys arguing with MiniManAdam is hilarious.

His threads show what kind of person you're arguing with. He struggles routinely. This thread is not an abnormality.

Let him continue skating uphill.