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Mysterious whine (not the typical supercharger whine) after engine maintenance.
Hello, longtime lurker, second time poster (after my intro in 1st gear).
If I have posted this in the wrong sub, let me know.
I have a 2005 r53 6 speed with 201k miles that I just got out of an independent BMW shop after being without it for nearly 2 months. I originally brought it in because the throwout bearing shat itself, probably because the master cylinder was faulty and the clutch wasnt really separating from the flywheel fully when the clutch was depressed, but thats just my laymans guess.
What is wrong with it: it makes a very concerning whining noise proportional to engine RPM (not load) and seems to be independent of the supercharger whine. I will be linking to a video I took that (hopefully) has the audio of the noise.
When I place my ear near the engine, it almost sounds like the noise comes from the top of the head, not the S/C, but my perception of sound is probably unreliable.
What was changed: Stock clutch replaced with Valeo Single Mass Fkywheel kit with guide tube, stock pulley replaced with Cravenspeed 17% pulley with what I believe is the appropriately sized belt (Gates K060535), timing chain tensioner, green supercharger inlet gasket, clutch master and slave cylinder, tons of other gaskets because of oil leaks, and some other odds and ends that come about when you have your entire engine removed. I also had the mechanic install the MBKPerformance.com supercharger oil change kit, which the mechanic installed only 1 of 2 fill plugs (grr).
I have my invoice from the repair in case any other details of parts replaced would help.
I have been browsing forums for a decade or more and am well aware that there is a search function, but with my terminology, I am mostly getting results about the typical supercharger whine.
My previous r53 had nearly the exact same setup, Alta CAI, 17% pulley, and it never had any noises like this. People on the facebook forums are suggesting it is the charge pipe inlet or that the belt is misaligned. The car runs and gets me to work, but I have to say that I am a bit unimpressed with the power gain, although that could be because I am afraid to WOT around town when I have a mystery noise.
What I am looking for is advice on what could be the culprit, or advise as to how I could help myself diagnose the issue. I am not opposed to breaking out the wrenches.
Quote: I also had the mechanic install the MBKPerformance.com supercharger oil change kit, which the mechanic installed only 1 of 2 fill plugs (grr). :end quote
This is a serious mistake. I hpe you did not have to pay for it, as it will now need to be redone the right way! both ends need changing!!!
The whine may be a vacuum leak due to hoses off, pressure release valve failure. (due to broken vacuum valve).
Quote:This is a serious mistake. I hpe you did not have to pay for it, as it will now need to be redone the right way! both ends need changing!!!
How he did and didn't charge me is a tricky one. He definitely didnt charge me for every hour of labor he did, that's for sure. Pardon my ignorance, but what will be super wrong with this half setup? He didn't install the plug on the drivers side of the charger, but from what I was aware of, the two oil chambers in the S/C are separate, am I wrong? What am I at risk of running it the way its pictured?
Quote:The whine may be a vacuum leak due to hoses off, pressure release valve failure. (due to broken vacuum valve).
What can I do with my own tools to try to track this down without taking it back to the shop? I won't be able to bring it back to him until next weekend, as the wife was pretty PO'd about how long I had her car, I had to drive her to work and she had to uber home from work (I work much farther from home than her).
Also, if I can provide better footage/audio/troubleshooting, let me know and I will do everything I can to try to provide that. Hell, I'd pay someone more knowledgeable that I in the San Diego area to come take a look at it .
The drivers side of the supercharger oils the gears that run the waterpump and lube the driver side supercharger bearings! This will be a fatal blow to the supercharger, if the oil and plug are missing. The gears will break and cost you the supercharger and possibly the engine.The wrong guy worked on it. He must have no Mini experience!
Unless you mean he did not remove the plug on the drivers side, which is also a problem, as it is critical to have oil in it.
I hope you get this sorted out, before you start driving it around!
I can't tell what the problem is, but it does sound mechanical and not from a vacuum leak. What I don't understand is if he had the SC off, why he did not fill both chambers?
Let me reply to the last 3 comments by saying that yes, I did have the wrong mechanic work on this. His garage was full of Audi's and BMWs and he gave me a tour and it looked like this would be no big deal for him. Big oof and hindsight being 2020. i would have sold this car as a mechanics special and bought a motorcycle.
He did not remove the plug on the drivers side, he left it as is and only installed the plug kit on the passenger side and filled it with one bottle of AC Delco SC fluid and presumably the drivers side of the SC is full of the oil it had before it went in. And the noise does not even come close to coming from the drivers side of the SC/engine.
When I put my ear near the S/C, it sounds like the noise is coming from the very top right of the valve cover, where it says MINI. I even put my ear near the S/C because I figured it was so much more likely to be the S/C. The only part that was changed near that area is the timing chain tensioner.
When I put my ear near the S/C, it sounds like the noise is coming from the very top right of the valve cover, where it says MINI. I even put my ear near the S/C because I figured it was so much more likely to be the S/C. The only part that was changed near that area is the timing chain tensioner.
Heres a dorky diagnostic technique I’ve gotteen lucky with in the past. Get about 3 feet of rubber tubing that’ll fit snug in your ear canal. Stuff it in one ear and hold it there by cupping your hand over the ear. Plug the other ear, or don some noise reducing ear coverings so that you can’t hear out of your other ear. Guide the other end of the hose around until the prominent sound you hear is the one you’re trying to find. Move around a bit and try different angles to make sure it gets quieter when you move away and louder when you’re closer. This has helped me pinpoint a couple of odd noises. The key is to try to block out as much other noise as you can so you’re mostly hearing what’s at the far end of the tube. Good luck.
Heres a dorky diagnostic technique I’ve gotteen lucky with in the past. Get about 3 feet of rubber tubing that’ll fit snug in your ear canal. Stuff it in one ear and hold it there by cupping your hand over the ear. Plug the other ear, or don some noise reducing ear coverings so that you can’t hear out of your other ear. Guide the other end of the hose around until the prominent sound you hear is the one you’re trying to find. Move around a bit and try different angles to make sure it gets quieter when you move away and louder when you’re closer. This has helped me pinpoint a couple of odd noises. The key is to try to block out as much other noise as you can so you’re mostly hearing what’s at the far end of the tube. Good luck.
I remember when I had my last r53s muffle seam repaired, the exhaust guy was doing that all over the car and at first I thought he had some sort of high tech device, only for him to tell me it was a piece of hose.
New developement, the EML came on during some slow traffic and as far as I'm aware, that's like the super-check-engine light. But it went away once I parked and restarted my car. Haven't driven it again since I parked and restarted if, but I assume it will come on again, and I'm not sure if my SCANGUAGE II knows how to read the EML codes.
Here is another OneDrive link to another video I took when I got my coworker to give it gas in neutral, not sure if it helps but I was able to get my camera close to it while having it be revved.
It sounds like the cam chain tensioner has bought the farm. When you get a new one, make sure it is a tested one, as there are many out there that do not work from new!
New developement, the EML came on during some slow traffic and as far as I'm aware, that's like the super-check-engine light. But it went away once I parked and restarted my car. Haven't driven it again since I parked and restarted if, but I assume it will come on again, and I'm not sure if my SCANGUAGE II knows how to read the EML codes.
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EML just means your engine went into protective mode. The codes aren’t any different that I’m aware. Use your SGII to read them, and let us know what they are. Maybe much to be learned by what the computer is telling you. I listened to the video and it definitely sounds mechanical, if I’m listening to the right noise.
It sounds like the cam chain tensioner has bought the farm. When you get a new one, make sure it is a tested one, as there are many out there that do not work from new!
While I have never heard the phrase "Bought the farm", I was thinking the chain tensioner was a suspect too. Is it possible that the tensioner is pushing on the chain guide too hard? I know what it sounds like when the chain tensioner isn't putting enough pressure on it, the chain slaps around and sounds kind of like a failing n14 engine until the oil pressure forces the tensioner to do its job, which is the sound I was getting and why I had a new tensioner installed anyway.
Originally Posted by pnwR53S
You problem is very likely the SC inlet pipe leak. When servicing the SC one need to be very careful in reconnecting all those connections at the inlet pipe. Read my post on this. I think I had remove the SC 3 may be 4 times and never had a problem. A lot of others complain about unable to get a good seal with the green gasket.
So with these two suggestions in mind, what should I do to test which it is? Would a bad seal on some of the inlet stuff make pressurized air come out near the seals? Should I have the mechanic swap the tensioner to a new one? The one that I provided was never used, but I did have it in my possession for a few months before I had it installed.
I have been driving this vehicle with this awful noise, I really have no choice, my wife is not letting me use her car again after she went without it for more than a month, and biking to work would supposedly take 3 hours and require I take a ferry across the San Diego Bay. If it blows up, I'll go buy a beater Corolla or something while I make life slightly less pleasant for the garage that did this work. But if I ignore the noise, the car feels nice to drive, although the 17% pulley isn't that noticeable, maybe due to this issue sapping my power.
While I have never heard the phrase "Bought the farm", I was thinking the chain tensioner was a suspect too. Is it possible that the tensioner is pushing on the chain guide too hard? I know what it sounds like when the chain tensioner isn't putting enough pressure on it, the chain slaps around and sounds kind of like a failing n14 engine until the oil pressure forces the tensioner to do its job, which is the sound I was getting and why I had a new tensioner installed anyway.
So with these two suggestions in mind, what should I do to test which it is? Would a bad seal on some of the inlet stuff make pressurized air come out near the seals? Should I have the mechanic swap the tensioner to a new one? The one that I provided was never used, but I did have it in my possession for a few months before I had it installed.
I have been driving this vehicle with this awful noise, I really have no choice, my wife is not letting me use her car again after she went without it for more than a month, and biking to work would supposedly take 3 hours and require I take a ferry across the San Diego Bay. If it blows up, I'll go buy a beater Corolla or something while I make life slightly less pleasant for the garage that did this work. But if I ignore the noise, the car feels nice to drive, although the 17% pulley isn't that noticeable, maybe due to this issue sapping my power.
The inlet pipe leak would not qualify as a mechanical issue that would make that type of sound. Your problem doesn't sound like a vacuum/air leak. I would look into the Timing Chain Tensioner:
The problem sounds mechanical, something spinning with the revs of the engine:
Timing Chain Tensioner (Chain slapping against the metal tensioner)
Timing Chain Guides, (Maybe, if the guides are shot, chain would slap against the metal tensioner)
Serpentine Belt Tensioner
Idler Pulley
Alternator (Pulley bearings)
AC (Pulley bearings)
Super Charger
One detail I didnt add was that the stock S/C pulley was removed the unpleasant way, with a grinder of sorts. I point this out because someone in the Facebook forums states that their r53 also had the pulley forcibly removed in the same way, and it has had the same noise for 12k.
I went to an independent Mini garage and they said not to worry about anything on the car the way it is now, but on the drive home from them, the EML and CEL came on, and the code is p1498. I am going to examine the IC boots and the S/C inlet plastic thing, although I think that was replaced while the motor was out.
Thanks everyone for all the input, it is much appreciated and it continues to help me.
The phrase, “he bought the farm,” originated before WW1 when if a soldier died in battle the government would pay off any existing mortgage he may have had on his farm. They don’t do that anymore, but they should.
The phrase, “he bought the farm,” originated before WW1 when if a soldier died in battle the government would pay off any existing mortgage he may have had on his farm. They don’t do that anymore, but they should.
Right you are and in this application he died. He being the dampenner! Another old fart!
The cam chain tensioner is located below oil filter and slightly towards the passenger side. It is a bolt (sorry forgot the size right now maybe 21mm) It is a hydraulic and works by tightening the chain with oil pressure. It is also possible that the plastic chain guides have broken and need replacing too! If the valve cover is removed, you can use a flashlight and see if the plastic guides are broken.
I have had to change quite a few cam chain tensioners on gen1 Minis. The guides less often, but they do get hard and break and should be changed at least every 100K miles.
The cam chain tensioner is located below oil filter and slightly towards the passenger side. It is a bolt (sorry forgot the size right now maybe 21mm) It is a hydraulic and works by tightening the chain with oil pressure. It is also possible that the plastic chain guides have broken and need replacing too! If the valve cover is removed, you can use a flashlight and see if the plastic guides are broken.
I have had to change quite a few cam chain tensioners on gen1 Minis. The guides less often, but they do get hard and break and should be changed at least every 100K miles.
I am unfortunately aware of the whereabouts of the chain tensioner, as I failed to be able to change it myself. I have toyed with the idea of getting a swivel socket and removing it, but I find it unlikely that the cam tensioner is pushing too hard on the chain guides and causing this whine, but I wont rule anything out.
After another r53 owner told me that they have the same sort of whine after having their stock pulley grinded off (as opposed to removed with the correct puller), my hunch is that the bearings on the supercharger shaft got some metal shavings in them or something.
Have you removed the serpentine belt to see if the whine persists? Take the belt off, start the car if the whine is gone, then you know it's not coming from the engine then you just have the parts that use a pulley to contend with:
05-16-2019, 12:54 PM
