ariercetinberk: well put but i must go on...

eMINI: I have a friend who is an instructor at Xtreme Measures, Michael Skeen. He is in my Ga Tech car club, Wreck Racing. But anyways, yeah DSC is slower on the track for any good driver. What I was saying is that for "average" american drivers (which I consider to be poor drivers...no offense, its true) on the street, DSC is more helpful than hurtful.

 

Arier..., this thread is about whether he should spend an extra $500 to get DSC, and obviously we are still discussing the pros and cons of the system, which should help anyone making this decision to make an informed choice. In this case Coco (the author) has decided to get DSC, which for him sounds like a good choice.

As many have pointed out, however, the DSC/ASC systems (and ABS for that matter) are not without their faults. For sure I would be more inclined to choose DSC if you could just run it without ASC, because ASC is the system responsible for most of the power loss issues. Read the technical explanation for DSC, however -- the computer "senses" in which direction you were intending to travel and then corrects by applying individual brakes if it detects a deviation from that "intended" path. In many cases the computer really has no idea what the driver is trying to accomplish -- it cannot read your thoughts afterall -- it uses proxies like steering angle to guess your intended path. So any extra steering or throttle input the driver wants to apply is canceled by this system, which personally I do not want.

It's fine if others want this, but as this thread shows there are many of us who do not. The choice is certainly not as black and white as you suggest it to be -- not to mention that if you read the study that suggests a 56% reduction in single vehicle accidents, the data simply do not warrant this claim. (This is more relevant to Npartist's comment)

The consistent idea suggested by many of those who did not choose or like DSC is that we do not want aggressive nannies like the DSC/ASC combo to tell us how to drive. And for those of you who think that these systems are not aggressive, I had ASC/DSC engage on my sedate test drive around surburban Denver while I was cornering and accelerating around a smooth, progressive corner at about 35 mph on dry pavement (in an '05 MCS). It was ridiculous -- a frickin' Hummer woud have negotiated the corner faster than the Mini once these systems (probably ASC) intervened "on my behalf"!

Finally, as I stated before, most driving schools/instructors suggest that acceleration/throttle input are just as vital to accident avoidance as are braking/deceleration. DSC and ASC engage ONLY the brakes and cut throttle -- IMO this can create as many problems as it solves.

 

My MCS has DSC and I love it!

I often turn it off during summer, when I want to drive a bit harder, but I let it on in winter. It really helps a lot in snowstorms, and we get pretty hard ones here in Quebec! I drive with the DSC on, and I know there is an electronic system taht will help me if something happens...

I agree that both ASC+T and DSC are really intrusive on wheelspins... The engine cuts off power, and it can be annoying... But with MTH software, it is some kind more "intelligent" and it doesn't cut as much power from the engine...

I say DSC is a good thing to have, and it will help you sell your car in the future... Stability control systems are getting very poplular and they will be in almost every cars in 2-3 years, just as ABS

 

Berk,

I'm happy to hear that you approve of the points made in several of the posts in this thread. And, bottom line, you're right: if you don't like DSC, you can switch it off. You pretty much answered the original question in post #2. And Crashton pointed out the off switch in post #4.

I guess the thread could have ended there. I mean coco's question was answered; what else was there to say at that point? Yet quite a few NAM members felt obliged to offer their "opinions on DSC". Somehow, even after you had so masterfully answered the question, a discussion developed. We even managed to stay on topic and be respectful of one another.

I'm not sure why it bothered you, but I actually do appreciate it when someone includes information in their posts to help me better understand their background and the level of experience & knowledge they bring to the table. For example, individuals with extensive track or rally experience will likely have more knowledge about car control than the average driver. In a discussion of the merits of Dynamic Stability Control software, their observations and opinions may therefore be more informed than someone else's.

I don't think there was any attempt by any of the posters to position themselves as the ultimate authority based on the number of laps under their belts or the number of rallies they'd run. Several of us do have strong opinions based on personal experience. Maybe you do, too. But IMO, your credibility is eroded by posts such as this. I'd like to think you can do better. So do us a favor and lose the rudeness. Let the good Berk shine through, man. We'll be pullin for ya.

 

The DSC is a passive safety feature that can be a bit unwanted at times. Unless it is raining or snowing I drive with mine off most of the time. What I really need is an LSD....

 

I've got LSD on my `05 MCS. As I recently discovered when the car cut power just as I was turning right and entering a high-speed road, ASC could get you killed when it cuts power just when you need it, and the stupid thing overrides the whole point of the LSD.

I've also had occasional odd results when I needed power for stability in the middle of hard cornering, which I now realize must have been the 'nanny' circuit.

Fortunately, I've got Ian's circuit, and have the ASC Off by default now, but the silly thing still lights up a glaring yellow indicator light that is bright enough to make night driving more difficult. (I have the instrument package, so the yellow ASC indicator points straight as my face.)

So my next step is to get into the tach to dim the yellow indicator light, as I have no intention of dying because of some engineer's idea of what is unacceptable wheelspin.

Can anyone testify how much effect the MTH package has on ASC if a car already has LSD too? I gather that LSD is supposed to make the ASC less aggresive, but it isn't enough so for my preference.

 

Yes i agree yelloow light is VERY annoying! if I wanted to not drive my car as I intended on it why didn't they just put in an autopilot. If you don't know the limits of your car you shouldnt drive spiritedly. With that said I hate the ASC cuz it has almost got me in accidents when I want to accelerate and it says... NO. I have mine turned off all the time unless I am at the dragon so I don't kill myself and would rather cut power instead of sliding off a cliff. I know how my car handles and know about the limits before somethign gives so I prefer to drive my car vs it driving for me.

just my opinion

-Josh

 

And, to be Devil's advocate, here's some video.

In this one, the DSC is left on in my Cooper. Tell me that DSC does not allow for hard cornering.

http://homepage.mac.com/jtross/iMovieTheater46.html

This one, same day, has DSC off during my fast lap. But, it does show me getting out of shape on cold tires (and hitting a curb a little too hard) and having the DSC on at that moment did help keep the car on the track.

http://homepage.mac.com/jtross/iMovieTheater47.html

These videos can also be used in the Cooper vs MCS arguments.

 

Quick question to those that KNOW. Need to clarify something. Normal mode is all systems active. With it off are ALL off, or do you still have ABS? I know I could go out and try locking em up on the wet road, this is easier. I understand that traction control and stability control are two seperate animals. Before I get flamed I also know they are related and work together. It's the "sensitive" traction part that annoys me. I live in RAIN country. The normal mode is just too touchy.

 

You can't shut off ABS, EBC or CBC, afaik.

 

That's what I figured.......just needed to hear it. Thanks

 

I have had my car (04 MCS) for about 18months and have recently (in dry weather only) been turning off the DSC. The throttle respose feels crisper and it doesn't seem to bog down so much at low rpms... overall it's more fun and easier to drive the car with it off. I'm not sure I would get it again if I was faced with the descision. Recently I've been wondering about potential liablity (on my part) for switching it off when driving should I get into an accident.. I'm not sure what the legal position is or if it can even be proven that it was off at the time of accident.

 

I don't think that a driver would be responsible for keeping traction control on at all time of driving. But again, things might get weird sometimes, with all these lawyers out there.

 

mine is off all the time... yes i do wheel spin on slippery conditions, hills, or humps in the road but you know what all my previous cars did the same thing! you learn to drive it or you sell it and get something you can drive. I like to be in as much control of my car as I can. And somethign telling me i can't chirp my wheels from 1st to 2nd just has to go.

-Josh

 

I wish someone here in the US would give a real reason why it was never available!!! Only thing I heard was the price... they wanted the more expensive option!!!!

one thing I did want on my car WAS the ASC+T.. even got a toggle put in (bought a full set from Classic) but I bought the set with the ASC lable... not DSC.. hoping I might find a way to retrofit it in...(that and the front fogs..) all I need is the gelt

R

 

In my new Mini (still getting to know it) I have ASC but not DSC.

In reading the manual, the description of the two in terms of what each does is nearly identical, nearly word-for-word.

What is the actual functional difference between the two?

 

I dont even think that there is a functional difference between the two. Maybe there was a software update and they changed the name?

 

From what I understand ASC controls the brakes and DSC controls the engine torque on the drive wheels to maintain traction.

 

ASC is All Speed Traction Control. It prevents the wheels from spinning under acceleration

DSC is Dynamic Stability Control. It includes ASC, but it will also help keep control of the car in a turn if you start to lose control by braking individual wheels to keep you on your intended line.

 

I think you have those switch around. I can turn my DSC off and burn rubber like a mad man.

 

Nope, cube17576 has it right. You can burn rubber with either turned off.

 

Oh.. I'm all sorts of Bass Ackwards then... sorry.

((need more coffee...))

 

For cars with DSC, when you disable DSC it turns off both DSC and the ASC functions.

 

ASC is for when you overuse the throttle (hit the gas and spin the wheels)

DSC is for when you overuse the steering wheel (try to take a corner too fast).

 

Thankfully there is a fix for either version of the electro nanny.

http://www.gbmini.net/MINIcircuit/index.shtml